Please forgive the sloppiness of this post. I wanted to do a lot
more on it but ran out of time. Hopefully this will be helpful to some
readers. There is a LOT MORE IN THE RECORDING but I've tried
to put down here what is most pressing, IMHO... So much material,
how to keep up with it all???
One thing's for SURE. I would love to have a front row center seat
at a debate between Fr. Pfluger and Fr. Pfeiffer. You can be absolutely
sure that Fr. Pfluger would never show up for that!!
I made a mistake and missed it before --
Thanks for these, IDS --
I thought I had heard this one already because the first few minutes were so
familiar, but then the rest is all new -- 55:50 duration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL-cYpBOA9M&feature=plcp
Fr Pfeiffer sermon - 21st Oct 2012 - Analysis of Fr Pfluger's interview.
Bp Williamson's expulsion.
Fr. Pfeiffer goes into critical detail on the interview of Fr. Pfluger, page by
page. This is a primer on Critical Reading that we ought to do holding
the same pages he holds. I would suggest getting a copy of the Interview
and print it out with 4 or 5 empty spaces between each line, and take
notes as Fr. speaks on it.
There is more to this...
Fr. Pfeiffer provides an introduction for 7:15 that you will not find anywhere else
on planet earth. I know people who would not bear to listen even to this first
seven minutes. But it prepares you for what is to follow. If you cannot cope
with hearing this introduction, then forget about the rest - you can't bear to
hear it either!
Here is the text you should read while you listen to Fr. Pfeiffer's sermon.
At minute 15:43 Fr. Pfeiffer says this is "not on Rumor.org" but it's available as
the official teaching of the Society on SSPX.org but I could only
find it on DICI and Rorate Caeli:
Abbe Pfluger
Source
DICI and found
also on
Rorate
Caeli.
SSPX-Rome: "We are back to square one"
An interview with Father Niklaus Pfluger, First Assistant General of the Society of St. Pius X, on the present situation of the Society.
Kirchliche Umschau: Just a few months ago, the Vatican seemed to be on the verge of granting canonical recognition to the Society. It seems now that all efforts were in vain. Bishop Müller, the new Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, suggested as much in several recent interviews.
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
All efforts were not in vain, but an agreement in the near future is improbable. In both our estimation and that of the Curia, any agreement would be pointless unless we are on the same page about what the Faith really means. This common understanding was to be expressed in a “doctrinal declaration”, which we took ample time in drawing up, and in April 2012, Bishop Fellay, our Superior General, presented a preliminary, informal draft. But, to our great surprise, this text was rejected by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. So we are back to square one.[13:10]
Kirchliche Umschau: How do you account for Rome’s change of direction?
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
In Rome there is a group strongly opposed to a canonical regularization for the Society. Such an official recognition would in effect be a sign that the post-Vatican II era is outdated and that a new chapter has begun. [All of the Novus Ordo priests Fr. Pfeiffer has met do not agree with Fr. Pfluger.]
Of course, this would not suit the agenda of the Council’s supporters. For them,
official recognition of the Society of St. Pius X would be not merely an insult, but
also a questioning of the Council’s status, therefore a collapse. It appears that the
Council’s adherents prevailed.
Kirchliche Umschau: Do you think that there could be a new development?
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
Not just think–I know! The facts are what they are. The Church everywhere in the world, with some rare exceptions, is undergoing a
process of self-destruction, and not just in Europe. In Latin America, for
example, things don’t seem to be any better. Where the economy is relatively
strong, as in Germany, Switzerland, and the United States, the external structures
remain. But the loss of the Faith can be seen everywhere. Now, without the Faith,
there is no Church. In Germany, the bishops recently sent a clear message: the
right to collect taxes from Church members is
more important than 120,000
Catholics leaving the Church every year. We are witnessing a march to
destruction unseen in history, a rising tide which not even the bishops can stem, using, as they do,
tactics devoid of the spirit of Faith. Joseph Ratzinger, as a
Council father 50 years ago, spoke of a Church, “imbued with the spirit of
paganism,” which the Council did its part to usher in. [17:15] I am convinced that this turn of events, on the one hand, will bring the bishops to a more sober frame of mind, and, on the other hand,
will leave only the conservatives holding fast, meaning those who quite simply wish to believe as
the Church has always believed, and to persevere in their Catholic Faith. With
those holding fast, we will no longer need to argue. Agreement in the Faith will
soon follow.[18:40 This is the second very important change in the Society's doctrine. We
used to hear this all the time in the anti-abortion debate... The faith is no
longer essential. We no longer need to defend the faith because everyone's
faith is the same... This is a betrayal, and therefore they are traitors. They have
betrayed us, they have betrayed us, they have betrayed us. -ABL]
Kirchliche Umschau: You are insinuating that the tide of self-destruction will engulf liberal Catholics. But the liberals see things differently. They want even more
reforms to assure the survival of the living Church.
Father Niklaus Pfluger: I am inventing nothing. I see events and where they lead. Which religious order or diocese has younger members to ensure its future growth,
and which ones are dying out? We can observe that decline and dissolution are
most apparent in those places where the so-called conciliar reforms are most
eagerly followed. I don’t deny that, in the arena of public opinion–and on the
parish level–the liberal approach is more acceptable. But the Church does not live
by social acceptance or by human applause. She derives her energy from men and
women who believe and practice their Faith, who are prepared to renounce worldly
pleasures to become priests, monks, or nuns. These latter are conspicuously
absent among the liberals, and that is why they now want to receive priestly
ordination, but of course without celibacy, without any self-denial. And they
naively expect to increase their vocations by lowering the standards!
Kirchliche Umschau: Do you foresee a new excommunication of the Society’s bishops, or even of the whole Society?
Father Niklaus Pfluger: There are many who might welcome a new
excommunication, but during this pope’s reign, it seems highly improbable. How
would they justify it? There is no “traditional heresy.” We do not belong to the
sedevacantists. We fully accept that the assistance of the Holy Ghost is granted
to the pope and the bishops. But from Rome’s standpoint, the Society was
pronounced guilty of “disobedience” even when the excommunications from 1988
were later withdrawn. How would they justify new ecclesiastical penalties? For
refusing the Council? In the Credo none of the articles state: “I believe in the
Second Vatican Council…!” The imposing reality of the facts just mentioned
should be more important than the discussions. We find today a new generation of
young priests, who slowly but surely discover the Old Mass, and through it, the
Catholic Faith in its entirety, and the authentic priesthood. But in many cases we
find young Catholics interested in the Faith, who nearly always discover it outside
of their parishes. These honest souls are very impressed by traditional doctrine
and worship, even if they still attend the New Mass. They observe the Society,
follow it with interest, seek to contact us, ask for our publications, and stay in
communication with us. The same holds for the Ecclesia Deicommunities, and
among diocesan priests, who, thanks to the Motu Proprio of 2007, have begun to
celebrate the Tridentine Mass. We are more than just a Society with almost
600 priests; our influence is deeply felt in the Church, and particularly in those circles which have a future.
[22:05 What is the message here? The future of the Catholic Church is in the
conservative movement.. We have to connect ourselves to the Indult
communities... When we come back, when we leave behind our excommunicated
status, we justify their position, we leave tradition.]
If the Romans want to save face, they will wisely avoid an excommunication which
they will soon have to revoke.
Kirchliche Umschau: So there is still a chance to regularize the Society, but it seems that the bottom line is to “recognize the Council.”
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
Of course we recognize that there was a Second Vatican Council. Archbishop Lefebvre himself was a Council father. Nonetheless, we
must admit that not only the post-conciliar reforms, but also certain texts of the
Council itself are in contradiction with important doctrines already defined by the
Church. Certain ambiguities and novelties are at the heart of the present
dissolution taking place within the Church. For Rome, it is unacceptable that we
speak of “the errors of the Council.” [23:50 These ambiguities, errors and novelties are not as bad now as they were
then. We can overcome them.]
You see, we criticized the Council while it was everywhere being celebrated and
when the Church enjoyed a deeper faith and vitality than it does today. Why
would we suddenly make an about-face, when our warnings and criticisms have
been vindicated over time? The sad reality is that, 50 years after the Council,
Archbishop Lefebvre’s predictions were far from exaggerated. In the 1970s, due to
the enthusiasm and naive optimism of the moment, nobody could have imagined
that the Catholic bishops would rally in favor of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, the propagation of
Islam, and the dissolution of marriage, which unfortunately is now the order of the
day! The Vatican is faced with the ruins of the Church, which was at one time so
beautiful and strong. But now there is no true renewal, no relief in sight. A realistic
evaluation of new charismatic communities, which were extolled in the last
decades as signs of vitality, should serve instead as warning signs.
I don’t
understand why there hasn’t been an honest and thorough investigation of the
causes of the present situation in the Church. The Church is destroying herself,
and silencing all discussion of the problem will not make the problem go away.
Pretending that the Council is not to blame for the post-conciliar crisis is burying one’s head in the sand.[24:40 So we have two different statements: 1) There are errors in the Council;
2) But it's the common understanding of the ambiguities and novelties that are
the problems in the Council, not the Council itself... The Light of Tradition 'spray'
makes everything in the Council okay...]
Kirchliche Umschau: Since you seem so little disposed to compromise, why do you still hold discussions with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
Because the pope and Rome are realities inseparable
from the Faith. The loss of faith in the Church’s structures—a loss of faith from
which we have been spared, thanks be to God–is only one aspect of the crisis in
the Church. For our part, we suffer also from a defect: the fact of our canonical
irregularity. The status of the post-conciliar Church is imperfect, nor is our status
the ideal.[27:25 There are two parts to the Church crisis. One part is loss of faith in the
Church structures. The other is the loss of our canonical irregularity. So we
cannot claim to be perfect! We are irregular. Example: adulterous wife accuses
her good husband of being a bad husband. Our canonical irregularity is not a
problem. The problem is Rome has lost the faith. Fr. Pfluger is speaking as a
Modernist here. Now they are saying that Bishop Tissier is too black and white.
They are preparing his separation. Divide and obliterate. They are going to deal
with them separately and succinctly.]
Kirchliche Umschau: Are you referring to members of your community who refuse
the discussions with Rome?
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
Yes, but they are few, very few. The prolonged
period of separation has led certain members to confusion in theology.
Deep
down, these persons set faith in opposition to law, [4 minutes of comments
follow here...] as if union with the pope, the primacy of the pope, were just a minor question of law. Separating the legitimacy of the pope from the Faith, and
reducing his legitimacy to a merely juridical question, is a sign of great danger.
Finally, it comes from a Protestant view of the Church.
But the Church is visible. The papacy belongs to the domain of Faith.
We ourselves, Catholics faithful to Tradition, suffer from the crisis in two ways. We participate in this crisis, albeit on a different and higher level, [The first way he does not explain!]
as I see it.
There is no denying the obligation to take an active part in overcoming the crisis. And this combat begins with us, by desiring to overcome our
abnormal canonical status.[34:20 The most important thing is to end our canonical regularity, and therefore
it does not matter what we have to do to unite with Rome...]
Kirchliche Umschau: So we are back to square one. Why not just go along with Rome?
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
Because we cannot exchange an imperfect status for one that is even less perfect. [comments]
Union with Rome is supposed to be an improvement, not a mutilation. Having to
omit certain truths of the Faith, as well as being forbidden to criticize various
doubtful and liberal positions: all this would be tantamount to a mutilation. We
will not go along with that.
[36:50 There is nothing 'doubtful' about Modernism, liberalism, ecuмenism --
these are clear heresies that lead souls to hell. No doubt! But they have become
'doubtful' - we are manouvering in this MUSH. First it's partial truth and then
MUSH.. Our Lord said, let your Yes be Yes and your No be No: It isn't that way
any more, in the NEW Society of St. Pius X... The rest of the interview is devoted
to two people, Bishop Williamson and Bishop Fellay.]
Kirchliche Umschau: The General Chapter was held in July. What position was taken by members of the Chapter?
Father Niklaus Pfluger: We laid down six guidelines to be met before any reunion with Rome. These were so many touchstones which restated the points to which we have always held fast. Our position was reinforced once more.
Kirchliche Umschau: On the Internet, there is a debate over this issue. Thundering condemnations are hurled at the Society’s leaders, who are accused of treason.
Father Niklaus Pfluger: You are quoting Bishop Williamson, who was excluded from the General Chapter by the great majority of superiors. That shows how strongly
united we are.
[38:30 There is only one BAD GUY, and that's Bishop Williamson. There are a lot
of accusations going on across the Internet and you're talking about +W. This is
damage control.. Will it cause a great scandal in Tradition? This is about expelling
that traditional, clear teaching that +W stands for. Now it's MUSH. The old
teaching is being expelled... More expulsions...]
Kirchliche Umschau: But you have a problem of communication. Judging by certain forums over the Internet, the situation couldn’t be worse.
Father Niklaus Pfluger: It is true that the Internet calls for, even requires, a new form of communication. We are obliged–just as the Vatican is–to go beyond the
printed publications in use until now. But surely there are simple souls who are
easily misled by sowers of discord, who themselves are widely misinformed by what
they read on the Internet. Our priests appealed to the faithful not to go on these discussion sites which are often very rude, and not to let themselves be
troubled and upset by the rumors and maneuverings found on the Internet. We will use the available means of communication from now on, including the Internet.
Kirchliche Umschau: Certain groups have targeted Bishop Fellay himself.
Father Niklaus Pfluger: Bishop Fellay has certainly done more for the cause of Catholics faithful to Tradition than all those who doubt him, criticize him, and even accuse him of treason. For several years, he has conducted relations with Rome prudently and skillfully; never did he act impulsively, nor did he let himself be provoked or lose patience. Today we have the Tridentine Mass available to
any priest; we have seen the lifting of the “excommunications” which were
inveighed against us in 1988; we have had the discussions on the problems of the
Council. And, as an Austrian bishop admits, we have brought the Council back on
the table for debate. Thus, as a result, the Council is no longer sacrosanct and its
glory turns to dust. And all this remains true notwithstanding the litany of praises
heaped on the Second Vatican Council by the 50 year jubilee.
[So don't pay any attention to the jubilee!]
Our Superior General has accomplished a great deal, because he persevered in the
negotiations and faithfully presented our theological positions. On that score, I
observe that he has only one aim in view in this crisis of the Church, namely to
preserve the Faith and to serve the Church with our whole heart.
Kirchliche Umschau: One question remains. Why is it that Bishop Fellay seems to have done nothing against the smear campaign mounted against him these last
few months over the Internet?
[The gentle Bishop Fellay, that has not done anything to respond to those who
attack him!]
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
Patience, kindness, and generosity appear to many as weaknesses, but this is not so. Faced with repeated attacks and harassment over
the Internet, we do not abandon our values and our principles. We deal with
plotting and intrigues according to the laws of the Church. This may seem like
procrastination which can be annoying to some, but it can’t be done any other
way if we don’t want to betray our own ideals. I would like to make this clear: let
no one imagine that he can criticize authority with impunity.[42:44 Patience, kindness, generosity, but if you criticize the authority then
you're DEAD! Several 'patient and kind' things happened last month. Two priests
were expelled, and a patient and kind expulsion of Bishop Fellay. Two of the
faithful were denied communion, patiently and kindly. A gardener in the Philippines
was fired. He is a poor man, with no other means of support, and for what? He
dared to attend my Mass. So his children are useless eaters anyway, so he
was patiently and kindly fired... ]
Kirchliche Umschau: What does this mean specifically?
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
Bishop Williamson has been given fair warning. This is a sad moment in the history of our Society. If he continues his Internet campaign against the Society and its Superior General, then his expulsion from the Society cannot be avoided. Besides his false ideas, he has plotted under cover. The
veritable tragedy is the fact that for years he has not accepted he authority of
the Superior General, [46:40 To say +W has not obeyed is a LIE. He did not shut down
Eleison Comments. Why not? Because it was needed. Severally
times he privately told Bishop Fellay, Please tell me what is wrong
with my ECs? No response. There has been no explanation to anyone
anywhere what the so-called "false ideas" are. Never. And
not here, either, please note...]
but has assigned to himself a God-given mission. Before the General
Chapter, he rallied priests and faithful to rebellion. For a Catholic bishop, this is
very serious.Kirchliche Umschau: The Society’s purpose is not limited to negotiations with Rome. What other fields of apostolate do you envision?
Father Niklaus Pfluger: The West has lost the Faith. One reason for this loss is the fact that the Church is no longer presenting the Faith, no longer brings it to the world. Modern churchmen almost seem to be ashamed of their faith, which is why they campaign for the defense of the environment, the redistribution of wealth, and aid to development.
We cannot just wait for them to come to their senses. We must be more active in society, have a greater influence in public, and rebuild Christendom with prudence, humility, and charity. As Our Lord appealed to those of His time: do not fear! [54:10 Faith is no longer the priority. Modern prudence, humility and charity. Faith is no longer a part of the equation.]
Kirchliche Umschau: Where do you see the important challenges to face?
Father Niklaus Pfluger:
We witness presently a world-wide persecution of Christians in the East. Our task is to draw our attention to our persecuted brethren and to come to their aid. The General Chapter’s Declaration made this clear. [50:30 This is a Communist tactic. Women do it all the time. We
must come to the aid of the persecuted. When they're being rotten
to their husbands or being rotten to their children, what do they say?
"You don't know how you make me feel!" "You're persecuting me!" Why
do they say that? To DISTRACT. We are concerned about the
persecuted brethren in the East?!? Have they done anything about the
persecuted brethren in the East? Have they sent any support to the
Catholics who are being killed, murdered? Even any VERBAL support?
The answer is: NO. Why do they talk about this? To distract from those
they are persecuting!! They are persecuting their own faithful. They are
persecuting their own priests. So what do they talk about? The
Superior General being persecuted. AND.. the people in the East - being
persecuted. Thereby distracting from those who are receiving
persecution, and UNJUST persecution, from MENZINGEN... follows w/ +W
examples.. ]
In the Western countries, parents are having fewer and fewer children because family values are declining. The laws of the State pose greater threats to the family, the building block of society. One major task is aid to families. We must give our support to large families, lest they be marginalized by society at large. But our primary duty remains–as re-emphasized by the General Chapter’s Declaration in July–the defense and preservation of the Faith, and specifically the formation of truly Catholic priests. That is the best way we can be of service to the Church.
On the personal level, sanctification is called for. Prayer, religious instruction, and the distribution of the sacraments are one aspect; an exemplary life and fraternal charity are the other aspect. They go together. By accomplishing this task, we help to save our own souls and those of our neighbor. Yes, indeed, we have known such moments where we have a real foretaste of the harmony and happiness
of heaven.
Materialism, atheism, coupled with false religions: all these are standing more and more in the way of a healthy Catholic life. We are speaking here of a decisive mission for the Society: to help believers of good will to keep the Faith in times of difficulty, and to live that faith. This is our task at the present time, and a magnificent and sublime one at that, if we use our God-given talents to spread the fire of divine love to the ends of the earth. This is only possible through a deep and vibrant faith.[54:00 And how do we do this ~ see above @ 54:10 ~
It is not our efforts that spread the fire of divine love. It's the grace of
God that spreads the divine love. This is a new theology. They are saying
again it is our goal to make amends with Rome, that is our work, that is
the crisis in the Church. It is a new theology. It is false. And the
liberalism is spreading within the Society, in all kinds of ways. We have to
stand up against it and we have to have no fear in our teaching of the
faith.]
Kirchliche Umschau: Thank you for the interview, Father.
[Source: DICI]