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Author Topic: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video  (Read 6750 times)

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Offline de Lugo

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Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2022, 05:55:07 PM »
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  • Michael Davies:

    "Once these new sacramental rites had become the habit of the English people, the substance of the doctrinal reformation, victorious now in northern Europe, would have transformed England also. All but insensibly, as the years went by, the beliefs enshrined in the old, and now disused, rites, and kept alive by these rites in men's minds and affections, would disappear-----without the need of any systematic missionary effort to preach them down. [Hughes, op. cit., p. 111.]

    Monsignor Hughes is referring here to a principle fundamental to every form of liturgy: Lex orandi, lex credendi-----"The law of prayer is the law of belief." This means that the manner in which people pray will determine what they believe. As Msgr. Hughes has explained, when the traditional Latin liturgical rites were replaced by new vernacular services, when the altars were replaced by tables, and when the celebrant turned to face the people, then almost imperceptibly, as the years passed by, the people, who were praying as Protestants, began to believe as Protestants."


    http://catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/sanctuary.htm
    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #16 on: November 05, 2022, 06:25:16 PM »
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  • On the one hand, it is certainly true that many ancient, post-persecution (i.e., Constantine) churches continued to feature altars without reredos (e.g., the Benedictine abbey in Fontgambault; the Dominicain couvent in Avrille built in the 11th century, etc.).  Nevertheless, the overwhelming majority (not all) of these churches predated the Protestant heresies regarding the Mass, and the response of the Baroque Church in the face of the Pretestant challenge was to double-down with even more magnificent altars complimented by reredos, baldacchinos, protected by rood screens, etc.

    The differentiation between protestant and Catholic worship could be known at a glance from the distinct form of the altar or the table.

    Now in the post-conciliar crisis, it is very strange that the FSSPX should begin blurring that distinction and inviting criticism by justifying a return to the "table altar," particularly at a time when the Protestant errors on the Mass have resurfaced within the Church, and at a time when many are worried about the consequences for the Fraternity in preparation for its ralliement to modernist Rome. 

    Abbe Rutledge seems to be aware of the disturbance this is causing (he begs you to listen to his entire explanation, which is at times archeologistic, just as in the Novus Ordo), and even if the choice in the altar style is mere poor taste and/or imprudence -a verdict which is still to be determined- did he and FSSPX leadership really expect it would pass without a whimper, even amongst branded faithful, particularly when other recent Fraternity church building projects incorporate the same modernist elements (e.g., the table altar in the remodeled chapel in Econe; the monstrosity in Madrid which looks like an LSD-induced dream, etc.)?
    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #17 on: November 05, 2022, 06:56:01 PM »
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  • Father's deflection strategy of 'listen to everything before posting your comments' would suggest they've been receiving flak about it.

    The seminary cost basically 50 million.  How many seminarians can it house and how many seminarians are there?  With 79 worldwide, it seems the new building should keep them going for a while.

    So... for roughly 100 million there's a massive church, for one parish, with an altar people are unhappy with, and an essentially empty seminary that in appearance closely resembles a Maximum-Security State Penitentiary?  Is that kinda right?

    Offline Charity

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    Re: New SSPX Dillwyn seminary altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #18 on: November 05, 2022, 06:57:45 PM »
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  • I didn't care for that Crucifix + St. Dominic in the main chapel there, but that too could have easily been rectified.
    Thanks for the beautiful images.

    Anyone know why the magnificent full body size framed images of the Shroud of Turin were left hanging in the basement classroom/lecture hall and in the basement corridor at Winona when they moved the seminary to Virginia?  They had been ordered from https://www.shroud.com/obtain.htm#backlit  and from what I had been told years ago Br. Marcel had constructed the frames for them.

    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #19 on: November 05, 2022, 07:49:04 PM »
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  • Yeah I'm not a fan of the new Immaculata altar that they're building. Yeah of course maybe that type of altar was more common in the 500s and 600s, but the Church under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, has improved her altars. The masses that were offered before the year 100 AD were offered on wooden tables in homes, should we go back to wooden tables now, just because it's old? Free standing altars can be beautiful. The picture attached is a free standing altar in an ICKSP church in Ireland.
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.


    Offline Charity

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #20 on: November 05, 2022, 08:28:28 PM »
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  • Offline SolHero

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #21 on: November 05, 2022, 09:08:51 PM »
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  • Not a fan of the detached altar either. They are putting so much money into this church and I think it was a great opportunity to build an altar unlike any of the modern altars built since Vatican II but yet they decided to go with this one.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #22 on: November 05, 2022, 09:47:42 PM »
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  • Crypto-modernist are worse than thieving Jєωs. 
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline trento

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #23 on: November 06, 2022, 05:34:51 AM »
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  • They stuck with the bare minimum.  NO THRONE above the tabernacle for exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.

    All that money for marble but only bronze instead of gold inside the tabernacle.

    Altars with 20 foot high reridos were also free standing (with storage in the back of the altars for candlesticks, vases etc)  And they had Thrones.

    And the bells have already been installed?  Wasn't there supposed to be a ceremony when the church is completed when the Bishop washes and blesses the bells with Holy Oil and names them?

    Even the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart at the center of the altar looks modern.  Don't like white hearts.  I could have been a beautiful red, three dimensional inlay.

    Don't like it at all.

    I know I'm going to receive flak from most people here but the new Immaculata sanctuary is actually better looking compared to the seminary sanctuary of La Reja in terms of proportion and color combination.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #24 on: November 06, 2022, 05:43:53 AM »
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  • At three minutes and fifty seconds, the narrator tells us that they have a free-standing altar because that was the tradition in the Church until around the eighth century.

    So they are just being traditional using a Cramner's Table.

    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #25 on: November 06, 2022, 08:00:57 AM »
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  • Since right now, we just have a computer rendering, I want to see the finished product before making any judgements. Things can and will change before then
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed


    Offline moneil

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #26 on: November 06, 2022, 08:01:32 AM »
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  • The Papal Altar at St. Peter's Basilica, consecrated by Pope Clement VIII on June 5, 1594.



    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8
    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #27 on: November 06, 2022, 09:42:48 AM »
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  • There is definitely nothing wrong with a free-standing altar per se. However, it is very likely imprudent in this situation and indicative of the leanings of the SSPX.

    I would definitely have preferred a grand altar to this. It looks too much like a table and it was a massive wasted opportunity.

    Regarding the exorbitant amount of money the SSPX is wasting. It hurts to see because my local SSPX Mass is in a room which has no air once it gets filled.

    To spend $50 million on anything while faithful all around the world have Masses in hotels and chairs is disgraceful.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #28 on: November 06, 2022, 02:12:21 PM »
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  • There is definitely nothing wrong with a free-standing altar per se. However, it is very likely imprudent in this situation and indicative of the leanings of the SSPX.

    I would definitely have preferred a grand altar to this. It looks too much like a table and it was a massive wasted opportunity.

    Regarding the exorbitant amount of money the SSPX is wasting. It hurts to see because my local SSPX Mass is in a room which has no air once it gets filled.

    To spend $50 million on anything while faithful all around the world have Masses in hotels and chairs is disgraceful.

    Here are the two big issues I have with their big expenditures:

    1) As you said, lots of chapels could use upgrades across the country.  What's worse is that there's been a history of SSPX diverting funds collected by people at chapels to their other projects, i.e. embezzling.  I know of several cases where the people at a chapel had major fundraising for a new church facility, but where the money evaporated and disappeared, and where decades later they still had no church after having raised hundreds of thousands, but then had to re-start their efforts.  SSPX have fine print everywhere that they own the chapels and can do what they want with the money, but this still is IMO morally THEFT, as the people had donated and raised the money for a specific purpose, and had slaved away in some cases for years at fund raisers, etc.  Alternatively, there are many areas where the money could be used to establish a Traditional Catholic presence.

    2) Until the emergence of neo-SSPX, the Traditionalist concept was that this Crisis is temporary, and when it's over all those Catholic churches, seminaries, school buildings held by he Conciliars would be returned to Catholic use.  Each Catholic city has dozens upon dozens of churches that could not be rebuilt today for any price (many still intact due to their historical significance but with a Luther table placed in front of the main altar).  Each Catholic diocese has a very nice seminary facility.  This speaks to the fact that SSPX view this as a "New Normal" where the SSPX will be its own little order/group within the Conciliar Church and sees this as a parmanent arrangement.

    This isn't about the Glory of God, but about someone's ego.

    I also suspect that they started the seminary with the notion that once they got regularized, the seminarians would just start flocking to them in droves.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: New St Marys Immaculata altar is table - youtube video
    « Reply #29 on: November 06, 2022, 02:20:53 PM »
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  • There is definitely nothing wrong with a free-standing altar per se. However, it is very likely imprudent in this situation and indicative of the leanings of the SSPX.

    I would definitely have preferred a grand altar to this. It looks too much like a table and it was a massive wasted opportunity.

    Regarding the exorbitant amount of money the SSPX is wasting. It hurts to see because my local SSPX Mass is in a room which has no air once it gets filled.

    To spend $50 million on anything while faithful all around the world have Masses in hotels and chairs is disgraceful.
    Many (the vast number) of the faithful have no Mass to attend and never receive the sacraments. Basically the grandeur is to serve themselves. It does not serve the best spiritual welfare of the faithful. Mission is a foreign concept.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.