The Modernist, Gerhard Müller, appointed to head the CDF is responsible for the following assertions:

"[The perpetual virginity of Mary] is not so much about specific physiological proprieties in the natural process of birth (such as the birth canal not having been opened, the hymen not being broken, or the absence of birth pangs), but with the healing and saving influence of the grace of the Savior on human nature, that had been wounded by Original Sin. ... it is not so much about physiologically and empirically verifiable somatic Details." (Katholische Dogmatik für Studium und Praxis, Freiburg 52003, p. 498)

This is heretical.


Scheeben's Mariology, vol. I, pp 110-112.

CHAPTER VII MARY’S PERPETUAL VIRGINITY (1)

UNLIKE all other mothers, with whom motherhood is incompatible with virginity, the mother of the Redeemer remains a virgin consecrated to God in her very motherhood as well as in her whole life. Indeed on account of the unique perfection of her virginity and of the unique sacredness of her person aid and whole being, which lays the foundation of her virginity and makes it complete, this woman must be called not merely "virgin" but specifically "the Virgin."

She had been so called already in the prophecy of Isaias regarding the mother of the Emmanuel and again in the Apostles’ Creed, where the virgin is placed with the Holy Ghost as one principle of the human birth of Christ. Both texts likewise define the objective and highest form of the sacredness of Mary’s person and entire being, which is the basis of her virginity. As bearer of God and instrument of the Holy Ghost she is taken possession of by God in the most sublime sense of the word and, as a chosen “spiritual vessel” and spiritual bride of God united to Him by marriage, she belongs to Him alone and without reserve.

The highest perfection of the quality of virginity, as it is contained in the Christian idea of “the Virgin,” comprises permanence. Otherwise Mary cannot be called virgin, much less “the Virgin.” She is virgo perpetua. This perfection of virginity comprises three essential parts: (1) bodily integrity and purity (virginitas corporis or carnis); (2) the virtue of virginity or the permanent virginal inclination (virginitas mentis); (3) the virginity of heart, i.e., freedom from all carnal motions and sensations (virginitas sensus seu animae).

Mary’s perpetual virginity was denied only by those heretics who denied also the divinity of Christ, such as the Ebionites, Arians, and rationalist Protestants, or by those who display a great wantonness in the domain of morals; such as Helvidius and Jovinianus. The Reformers opposed the perpetual virginity of spirit, at least so far as the vow is concerned, and partly also the virginitas in partu, without denying the divinity of Christ. But they minimized the living efficacy of the divinity of Christ, even for His own humanity, and they wished to avoid in the vow of Mary the ideal of consecrated virginity.

Mary's Bodily Virginity

The absolute perfection of the bodily virginity of the mother of Jesus, with regard to that act through which she outwardly appeared as the mother of Christ, is usually thus defined: Mary was a virgin in the birth, before the birth, and after the birth. This order shows that, whereas with other mothers the violation of the bodily integrity is strikingly obvious in the birth, Mary’s integrity was miraculously preserved in the birth of her Son and supposes and reflects the virginal conception of her Son. Furthermore it guarantees the perpetual continuation of her integrity to the exclusion of any other human conception.

The absolute bodily virginity can also be determined with reference to the conception which made her the mother of Christ, namely, that her virginity was not violated in, before, or after the conception of Christ. Thus, it is shown that the basis of her motherhood is also the basis of her perpetual virginity, just as in the first case the external revelation of her motherhood comes to the fore as a sign and guaranty of her perpetual virginity.

This permanent and perfect virginity of the body of Mary is de fide, especially since the definition by the Fifth Ecuмenical Council (can. 2), and by the Lateran Council under Martin I (can. 3). (2)

1. Literature; St. Thomas, IIIa, q.28 29, and Suarez, op. cit., disp. 5 8; St. Peter Canisius, op. cit., 1, 2; Petavius, op. cit., De Incarn., 1, 14; Trombelli, Mariae ss. vita ac gesta, Part 1, diss. 9 and 10. Especially for Mary’s marriage: Lombardus, In 4 S., dist. 30; and St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure.

2. Denzinger, nos. 214, 256.

Those are just some additional thoughts, since you say "you've read the thread".

The Lateran Council 649
On the Trinity, the Incarnation, etc.

Can. 3. If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself specifically and truly, who was born of God the Father before all ages, and that she incorruptibly bore [Him?], her virginity remaining indestructible even after His birth, let him be condemned

[Denzinger/Ferarri, No. 256]

Quote from: Santo Subito

Quote from: Sunbeam

The Lateran Council 649
On the Trinity, the Incarnation, etc.

Can. 3. If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself specifically and truly, who was born of God the Father before all ages, and that she incorruptibly bore [Him?], her virginity remaining indestructible even after His birth, let him be condemned

[Denzinger/Ferarri, No. 256]

What does "incorruptably bore [Him?] mean?

It means without the effects of Original Sin, such as pain and bleeding and so forth.  Sorrowful childbirth is explicitly mentioned as the curse God gave women in the garden : "n sorrow shalt thou bring forth children."  We can infer that pain is one of the causes of this sorrow, as well as inconvenience and the other things that the glorified bodies of the saints will not endure.

Quote

And why is "Him" included in brackets and a question mark? Are they not sure of the original text?

Because bore was not followed by the personal pronoun that English would demand but which was not demanded by the sense of the Latin word that was translated.

Quote

Her "virginity remaining indestructable" can mean that she simply did not know man throughout her entire life.

You do not seem to understand the pertinent biology of virginity very much.  Of course, it is impermissible for me to go into detail here, but I will say this : There is a way of determining whether or not a woman has remained a virgin, and Our Most Blessed Lady's virginity was perfect, such that she remained incorruptibly intact.  Now, you might make the argument that this does not pertain to virginity as such but is simply related to it, but that is not how the Church and the theologians and spiritual writers have taught on the subject of Our Lady's virginity which, as the Lateran Council authoritatively affirms, was "indestructible."  And, yes, I will throw in an appeal to the fitness of this teaching, since it was also used by Pius IX -- borrowing from Duns Scotus -- on the question of the Immaculate Conception.

from: http://www.sacredheart.com/The_Mystical_City_of_God_Book_04_Chapter_04.htm

Book 4, Chapter 4

The Mystical City of God, The Divine History and Life of The Virgin Mother of God



The most holy Mary remained in this ecstasy and beatific vision for over an hour immediately preceding her divine delivery. At the moment when She issued from it and regained the use of her senses She felt and saw that the body of the infant God began to move in her virginal womb; how, releasing and freeing Himself from the place which in the course of nature He had occupied for nine months, He now prepared to issue forth from that sacred bridal chamber. This movement not only did not cause any pain or hardship, as happens with the other daughters of Adam and Eve in their childbirths; but filled Her with incomparable joy and delight, causing in her soul and in her virginal body such exalted and divine effects that they exceed all thoughts of men. Her body became so spiritualized with the beauty of heaven that She seemed no more a human and earthly creature. Her countenance emitted rays of light, like a sun incarnadined, and shone in indescribable earnestness and majesty, all inflamed with fervent love. She was kneeling in the manger, her eyes raised to heaven, her hands joined and folded at her breast, her soul wrapped in the Divinity and She herself was entirely deified. In this position, and at the end of the heavenly rapture, the most exalted Lady gave to the world the Onlybegotten of the Father and her own, our Savior Jesus, true God and man, at the hour of midnight, on a Sunday, in the year of the creation of the world five thousand one hundred and ninety-nine (5199), which is the date given in the Roman Church, and which date has been manifested to me as the true and certain one.

At the end of the beatific rapture and vision of the Mother ever Virgin, which I have described above, was born the Sun of Justice, the Onlybegotten of the eternal Father and of Mary most pure, beautiful, refulgent and immaculate, leaving Her untouched in her virginal integrity and purity and making Her more godlike and forever sacred; for He did not divide, but penetrated the virginal chamber as the rays of the sun penetrate the crystal shrine, lighting it up in prismatic beauty.
The infant God therefore was brought forth from the virginal chamber unencuмbered by any corporeal material substance foreign to Himself. But He came forth glorious and transfigured for the divine infinite wisdom decreed and ordained that the glory of his most holy soul should in his Birth overflow and communicate itself to his body, participating in the gifts of glory in the same way as happened afterwards in his Transfiguration on mount Tabor in the presence of the Apostles (Matth. 17, 2). This miracle was not necessary in order to penetrate the virginal enclosure and to leave unimpaired the virginal integrity; for without this Transfiguration God could have brought this about by other miracles. Thus say the holy doctors, who see no other miracle in this Birth than that the Child was born without impairing the virginity of the Mother. It was the will of God that the most b1essed Virgin should look upon the body of her Son, the God-man, for this first time in a glorified state for two reasons. The one was in order that by this divine vision the most prudent Mother should conceive the highest reverence for the Majesty of Him whom She was to treat as her Son, the true God-man. Although She was already informed of his two-fold nature, the Lord nevertheless ordained that by ocular demonstration She be filled with new graces, corresponding to the greatness of her most holy Son, which was thus manifested to Her in a visible manner. The second reason was to reward by this wonder the fidelity and holiness of the divine Mother; for her most pure and chaste eyes, that had turned away from all earthly things for love of her most holy Son, were to see Him at his very Birth in this glory and thus be rejoiced and rewarded for her loyalty and beautiful love.

from: http://www.sacredheart.com/The_Mystical_City_of_God_Book_04_Chapter_04.htm

Book 4, Chapter 4

The Mystical City of God, The Divine History and Life of The Virgin Mother of God



The most holy Mary remained in this ecstasy and beatific vision for over an hour immediately preceding her divine delivery. At the moment when She issued from it and regained the use of her senses She felt and saw that the body of the infant God began to move in her virginal womb; how, releasing and freeing Himself from the place which in the course of nature He had occupied for nine months, He now prepared to issue forth from that sacred bridal chamber. This movement not only did not cause any pain or hardship, as happens with the other daughters of Adam and Eve in their childbirths; but filled Her with incomparable joy and delight, causing in her soul and in her virginal body such exalted and divine effects that they exceed all thoughts of men. Her body became so spiritualized with the beauty of heaven that She seemed no more a human and earthly creature. Her countenance emitted rays of light, like a sun incarnadined, and shone in indescribable earnestness and majesty, all inflamed with fervent love. She was kneeling in the manger, her eyes raised to heaven, her hands joined and folded at her breast, her soul wrapped in the Divinity and She herself was entirely deified. In this position, and at the end of the heavenly rapture, the most exalted Lady gave to the world the Onlybegotten of the Father and her own, our Savior Jesus, true God and man, at the hour of midnight, on a Sunday, in the year of the creation of the world five thousand one hundred and ninety-nine (5199), which is the date given in the Roman Church, and which date has been manifested to me as the true and certain one.

At the end of the beatific rapture and vision of the Mother ever Virgin, which I have described above, was born the Sun of Justice, the Onlybegotten of the eternal Father and of Mary most pure, beautiful, refulgent and immaculate, leaving Her untouched in her virginal integrity and purity and making Her more godlike and forever sacred; for He did not divide, but penetrated the virginal chamber as the rays of the sun penetrate the crystal shrine, lighting it up in prismatic beauty.
The infant God therefore was brought forth from the virginal chamber unencuмbered by any corporeal material substance foreign to Himself. But He came forth glorious and transfigured for the divine infinite wisdom decreed and ordained that the glory of his most holy soul should in his Birth overflow and communicate itself to his body, participating in the gifts of glory in the same way as happened afterwards in his Transfiguration on mount Tabor in the presence of the Apostles (Matth. 17, 2). This miracle was not necessary in order to penetrate the virginal enclosure and to leave unimpaired the virginal integrity; for without this Transfiguration God could have brought this about by other miracles. Thus say the holy doctors, who see no other miracle in this Birth than that the Child was born without impairing the virginity of the Mother. It was the will of God that the most b1essed Virgin should look upon the body of her Son, the God-man, for this first time in a glorified state for two reasons. The one was in order that by this divine vision the most prudent Mother should conceive the highest reverence for the Majesty of Him whom She was to treat as her Son, the true God-man. Although She was already informed of his two-fold nature, the Lord nevertheless ordained that by ocular demonstration She be filled with new graces, corresponding to the greatness of her most holy Son, which was thus manifested to Her in a visible manner. The second reason was to reward by this wonder the fidelity and holiness of the divine Mother; for her most pure and chaste eyes, that had turned away from all earthly things for love of her most holy Son, were to see Him at his very Birth in this glory and thus be rejoiced and rewarded for her loyalty and beautiful love.

Quote from: Santo Subito

Couldn't a Catholic believe that Mary gave birth naturally, though without pain of labor and without harming her body in any way? Of course Muller goes beyond this, allowing for the normal injury to a woman's body during childbirth.

Also what level is this teaching? It doesn't seem like it was infallibly pronounced ex cathedra. It was a statement from a non general Council, was it not? Thanks.

NO

You may be too young to have been raised Catholic, or something.

The Mother of God is Immaculate.

No sin or effects of sin whatsoever.  Virgin birth.  Please read what these kind people took the time to give to you, out of their kindness.

Quote from: Santo Subito

Couldn't a Catholic believe that Mary gave birth naturally, though without pain of labor and without harming her body in any way? Of course Muller goes beyond this, allowing for the normal injury to a woman's body during childbirth.

Also what level is this teaching? It doesn't seem like it was infallibly pronounced ex cathedra. It was a statement from a non general Council, was it not? Thanks.

NO

You may be too young to have been raised Catholic, or something.

The Mother of God is Immaculate.

No sin or effects of sin whatsoever.  Virgin birth.  Please read what these kind people took the time to give to you, out of their kindness.

Quote from: Clint

In other words he came out of the womb the same way He came out of the tomb,

Absolutely correct and almost exactly what the Fathers of Trent thought.

From the Catechism of the Council of Trent

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed03.htm

Quote

The Nativity Of Christ Transcends The Order Of Nature

But as the Conception itself transcends the order of nature, so also the birth of our Lord presents to our contemplation nothing but what is divine.

Besides, what is admirable beyond the power of thoughts or words to express, He is born of His Mother without any diminution of her maternal virginity, just as He afterwards went forth from the sepulchre while it was closed and sealed, and entered the room in which His disciples were assembled, the doors being shut; or, not to depart from every day examples, just as the rays of the sun penetrate without breaking or injuring in the least the solid substance of glass, so after a like but more exalted manner did Jesus Christ come forth from His mother's womb without injury to her maternal virginity. This immaculate and perpetual virginity forms, therefore, the just theme of our eulogy. Such was the work of the Holy Ghost, who at the Conception and birth of the Son so favoured the Virgin Mother as to impart to her fecundity while preserving inviolate her perpetual virginity.

Quote from: Santo Subito

Of course the passionate defense of Our Lady is expected from any Catholic. But, in this case, the question is whether Cardinal Muller said anything that in any way attacked or offended Our Lady. The emotional responses of some on a message board do not equate to evidence.

Msgr. Bux presents an argument that the perpetual viriginity of Mary means only that she was conceived by God and not man. That the Church has not made any dogmatic pronouncement on the physical or biological aspects and this is not what the Church is concerned with. She is more concerned with the spiritual significance. How do you (or anyone else) respond to this? Thanks.

This is but one of your errors.  The Church has in fact made dogmatic pronouncement on this, and the Church is indeed concerned!  Please get hold of your Catholic bearings!


There are four dogmas stating Our Blessed Mother's personal relationship with God and her role in human salvation.  One of the four dogmas concerns the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin.  I could site more complex theology, but it seems you need to have it spelled out in the simplest of terms, so please read the dogma below.

By the way SS, did you even bother to listen to the sermons I provided for you earlier on this thread?

2) Perpetual Virginity

The expression perpetual virginity, ever-virgin, or simply "Mary the Virgin" refers primarily to the conception and birth of Jesus. From the first formulations of faith, especially in baptismal formulas or professions of faith, the Church professed that Jesus Christ was conceived without human seed by the power of the Holy Spirit only. Here lies the decisive meaning of expressions such as "conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary," "Mary's virginal conception," or "virgin birth." The early baptismal formula (since the 3rd century) state Mary's virginity without further explaining it, but there is no doubt about its physical meaning. Later statements are more explicit. Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (Council of the Lateran, 649).

Although never explicated in detail, the Catholic Church holds as dogma that Mary was and is Virgin before, in and after Christ's birth. [/b]

Dr. Ludwig Ott Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

Quote

Mary's Perpetual Virginity

Mary was a virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.

The Lateran Synod of the year 649, under Pope Martin I, stressed the threefold character of Mary's virginity teaching of the "blessed ever-virginal and immaculate Mary" that : "she conceived without seed, of the Holy Ghost, generated without injury(to her viriginity), and her virginity continued unimpaired after the brith" (D 256). Pope Paul IV declared(1555): Beatissimam Virginem Mariam... perstitisse semper in virginitatis integritate, ante partum scilicet, in partu et perpetuo post partum. D 993

Mary's virginity includes virginitas mentis, that is, a constant virinal disposition, virginatas sensus, that is, freedom from inordinate motions of sɛҳuąƖ desire, and virginitas corporis, that is, physical integrity. The Church doctrine refers primarily to Her bodily integrity.

I'm not going to type out the multiple pages proving each one but I will type out the parts that declare them defide.

Quote

1. Virginity Before the Birth

Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man(De Fide.)
...

2. Virginity During the Birth of Jesus

Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity.(De Fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine).
...

3. Virginity After the Birth of Jesus

Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin.(De Fide.)...

To deny any of this is heresy, you are required to believe this to be a Catholic.

LORDPHAN Posted:

Dr. Ludwig Ott Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

Quote

Mary's Perpetual Virginity

Mary was a virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.

The Lateran Synod of the year 649, under Pope Martin I, stressed the threefold character of Mary's virginity teaching of the "blessed ever-virginal and immaculate Mary" that : "she conceived without seed, of the Holy Ghost, generated without injury(to her viriginity), and her virginity continued unimpaired after the brith" (D 256). Pope Paul IV declared(1555): Beatissimam Virginem Mariam... perstitisse semper in virginitatis integritate, ante partum scilicet, in partu et perpetuo post partum. D 993

Mary's virginity includes virginitas mentis, that is, a constant virinal disposition, virginatas sensus, that is, freedom from inordinate motions of sɛҳuąƖ desire, and virginitas corporis, that is, physical integrity. The Church doctrine refers primarily to Her bodily integrity.

I'm not going to type out the multiple pages proving each one but I will type out the parts that declare them defide.

Quote

1. Virginity Before the Birth

Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man(De Fide.)
...

2. Virginity During the Birth of Jesus

Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity.(De Fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine).
...

3. Virginity After the Birth of Jesus

Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin.(De Fide.)...

To deny any of this is heresy, you are required to believe this to be a Catholic.

Ok, SS, I'll try one more time.  Then I leave it to other good folks of this forum whom are more learned than I, to offer further instruction.

The Blessed Virgin's Perpetual Virginity, is indeed a decalred DOGMA of the Church, INCLUDING this part of the defined Dogma, when speaking about the PHYSICAL aspects:  "there is no doubt about its physical meaning. Later statements are more explicit. Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (Council of the Lateran, 649).   Her Perpetual Virginity remained INVIOLATE even after His birth....meaning when Jesus passed through Her womb in birth, Our Blessed Mother suffered NO physical changes to Her Virginty.
 
The papal definition of Mary's continued virginity during the birth of Christ refers to the event that at the appointed time of birth, Jesus left the womb of Mary without the loss of Mary's physical virginity. The Church understands Mary's virginity during the birth of Christ as an absence of any physical injury or violation to Mary's virginal seal (in Latin, virginitas in partu) through a special divine action of the All-Powerful God. This divine act would safeguard the Blessed Virgin Mary's physical virginity which is both symbol and part of her perfect, overall virginity; a virginity both internal and external, of soul and of body.

The Fathers of the Church overwhelmingly taught the miraculous birth of Jesus that resulted in no injury to the Blessed Virgin Mary's physical integrity. St. Augustine stated, "It is not right that He who came to heal corruptions should by His advent violate integrity." Later, St. Thomas Aquinas would defend the miraculous and painless nature of Christ's birth. As light passes through glass without harming it, so too did Jesus pass through the womb of Mary without the opening of Mary's womb and without any harm to the physical virginal seal of the Virgin, who was pure and the perfect tabernacle of the unborn Christ.

Why is Cardinal Mueller talking about the Blessed Virgin's "private parts" in the first place?  This alone smacks of a gross immodesty which, in this case, could be considered a sacrilege.  

I will read all of this more completely when I have more time.

However, I want to say immediately that I was wrong.  Mary of Agreda cannot be used to establish Dogma.  The Lateran Council can, however, and it states clearly and undeniably that ascribing such things as pain to Mary in childbirth is a condemned proposition.  It does appear that this is a matter of dogma, not pious belief, and until a few minutes ago I was on the wrong side of it.  

Thanks very much for the information and for the fraternal admonition.  

Well, thanks.

It was perhaps easier for me because I had no real emotional investment in my position.  I did not disbelieve the dogma.  I just didn't realize that it was dogma, not a matter for legitimate theological disagreement..