Author Topic: NEW BP. FELLAY SO HORRIBLE INTERVIEW (Read 24520 times)

Incredulous · « **Reply #60 on:** March 05, 2016, 03:00:23 AM »

Tell me da truth?

Is he jus a mixed-up Cadolic boy... who wanna be a jew ? :thinking:

Friday, September 12, 2014
Max Krah invites you to hear Ulrich Sahm talk

Our favorite uber-Zionist who helped create and administers funds for the Jaidhof Foundation to the FSSPX, has invited not only his friends but anyone who views his facebook page to hear Ulrich Sahm talk on 23 September 2014. Mr. Sahm is an interesting person to the say the least.

His father, was a diplomat in Paris & London as well as served as ambassador to Turkey & the Soviet Union for the the German government of Willy Brandt (aka Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm). He was married to former abbess of Klosters Mariensee (a Lutheran convent) and later with Christiane von Alten.

The Dresden ѕуηαgσgυє where the talk is being held.
The inscription above the door reads, "My house shall be called a House of prayer for all peoples."

Now onto Ulrich Sahm, who Max Krah is inviting you to hear speak on Israel at a ѕуηαgσgυє in Dresden no less! This talk is organized and sponsored by Dig Deutsch-Israelische Gesellschaft Dresden of which Max is the co-chairman! Mr. Sahm turns out to be a Lutheran who studied Judaism at university and fell in love with it. So much he moved to Israel and completed further studies at Hebrew University. Somewhere along the line Sahm became a reporter for various European television news outlets in addition to freelancing for an Israeli station or two. Sahm like his father has been married more than once. His second wife is an Israeli who is a historian of Jєωιѕн folklore and a professional photographer. She is the first Israeli photographer to have her photos exhibited at the Vatican. Her name is Varda Polak-Sahm and she claims to be a secular Jew.

Gerard from FE · « **Reply #61 on:** March 05, 2016, 12:26:32 PM »

One thought about the interview is that Bp. Fellay was sandbagged in order to make him look bad for something later on.

After regularization occurs, this interview can be used to tell Fellay to step down as Superior General and Rome can command a more "pastoral" and less divisive leader be put in place.

Wessex · « **Reply #62 on:** March 05, 2016, 01:16:56 PM »

Quote from: Raphaela

Quote from: Wessex
Perhaps it was unwise of the archbishop to be so indebted to a branch of the Rothschilds and for not looking at the origins of their fortune.

Wessex, they are no more related to the Rothschilds than you are to King Alfred. Nor do the origins of their fortune have anything to do with the Rothschilds and the Czech ironworks - that money all went up in smoke anyway. This family had been Catholic for nearly 100 years when they started supporting the SSPX.

But I am related to King Alfred!

The enrichment of 19th century European families was done with Jєωιѕн participation and I am not convinced that the Gutmanns and Rothschilds are strangers to one another. Conversions to Catholicism and Lutherism was a way Jews could get on in societies that were generally hostile to them. But we now have someone like Krah acting as a trustee of the bequest on behalf of members of the family contributing to the mystery and steering the money away from any good intention.

Matthew · « **Reply #63 on:** March 05, 2016, 01:19:37 PM »

Quote from: Gerard from FE

One thought about the interview is that Bp. Fellay was sandbagged in order to make him look bad for something later on.

After regularization occurs, this interview can be used to tell Fellay to step down as Superior General and Rome can command a more "pastoral" and less divisive leader be put in place.

That could be it.

Others have said it's a "test" or "rite of passage" --

I could just see a Roman official telling +Fellay: "I tell you what. Look up 'Conflict Zone' and schedule an interview with them. Tell them ______ sent you. We'll talk more after your interview airs..."

By getting this kind of confrontational barrage, they can test how "optimistic" and "politically savvy" +Fellay is, they can see if he is willing to excuse Vatican II, and so forth. They need to know where he's at.

After this interview, I think it's plain for all to see.

I realize that Conflict Zone was very adversarial and aggressive, but that is precisely what made it a very good test. These questions would ALL have been asked by various persons/groups over the next 5 years after a "deal" was made anyhow. Why not get a preview of how +Fellay will respond to these questions -- BEFORE canonical recognition is given?

Rome doesn't want any surprises. They want to see +Fellay weaseling and "sinning by omission" before they pay for the goods.

For example, when they confused "modern" with "modernism", he emphasized how the SSPX uses "modern things" like cell phones, Internet, etc. and conveniently didn't teach us about Modernism (which controls the thinking of the whole Conciliar Church) at all.

Or when the subject of men and women being equal came up -- of course the answer is "I must distinguish" but he focused on the modern world's point of view, how we're all equal before God (true). Rather than getting into St. Thomas and how men are superior in certain ways (also true). That wouldn't have won him any friends.

Come on, Bishop Fellay! Give us the quote where St. Thomas Aquinas says that were it not for reproduction, God would have done better by creating a second man for Adam.

So when there were two aspects to a problem -- a popular one, and a not-so-popular one, he always addressed the aspect he knew people wouldn't have a problem with.

Raphaela · « **Reply #64 on:** March 05, 2016, 02:12:36 PM »

Quote from: Wessex

But I am related to King Alfred!

The enrichment of 19th century European families was done with Jєωιѕн participation and I am not convinced that the Gutmanns and Rothschilds are strangers to one another. Conversions to Catholicism and Lutherism was a way Jews could get on in societies that were generally hostile to them. But we now have someone like Krah acting as a trustee of the bequest on behalf of members of the family contributing to the mystery and steering the money away from any good intention.

And I'm related to King Alfred too. I've traced it back. But so are around a quarter of the English population. In that sense most Jews are related to the Rothschilds. But that's not what was meant here.

Re Jєωιѕн conversions, do you allow anyone a good intention? St Paul perhaps?

curioustrad · « **Reply #65 on:** March 05, 2016, 02:13:23 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Gerard from FE
One thought about the interview is that Bp. Fellay was sandbagged in order to make him look bad for something later on.

After regularization occurs, this interview can be used to tell Fellay to step down as Superior General and Rome can command a more "pastoral" and less divisive leader be put in place.

That could be it.

Others have said it's a "test" or "rite of passage" --

I could just see a Roman official telling +Fellay: "I tell you what. Look up 'Conflict Zone' and schedule an interview with them. Tell them ______ sent you. We'll talk more after your interview airs..."

By getting this kind of confrontational barrage, they can test how "optimistic" and "politically savvy" +Fellay is, they can see if he is willing to excuse Vatican II, and so forth. They need to know where he's at.

After this interview, I think it's plain for all to see.

I realize that Conflict Zone was very adversarial and aggressive, but that is precisely what made it a very good test. These questions would ALL have been asked by various persons/groups over the next 5 years after a "deal" was made anyhow. Why not get a preview of how +Fellay will respond to these questions -- BEFORE canonical recognition is given?

Rome doesn't want any surprises. They want to see +Fellay weaseling and "sinning by omission" before they pay for the goods.

For example, when they confused "modern" with "modernism", he emphasized how the SSPX uses "modern things" like cell phones, Internet, etc. and conveniently didn't teach us about Modernism (which controls the thinking of the whole Conciliar Church) at all.

Or when the subject of men and women being equal came up -- of course the answer is "I must distinguish" but he focused on the modern world's point of view, how we're all equal before God (true). Rather than getting into St. Thomas and how men are superior in certain ways (also true). That wouldn't have won him any friends.

Come on, Bishop Fellay! Give us the quote where St. Thomas Aquinas says that were it not for reproduction, God would have done better by creating a second man for Adam.

So when there were two aspects to a problem -- a popular one, and a not-so-popular one, he always addressed the aspect he knew people wouldn't have a problem with.

No it has all the hallmarks of the +W interview. Remember Pope Benedict ordered a review as to where the plan to frame +W originated and the conclusion was that it originated in the Vatican itself in order to embarrass the Pope. What we have here is the same technique being deployed before a regularization in order to prevent the regularization. It will delay it but not prevent it. Francis has been going out on a limb for this one. Before you all say; "Don't make me laugh" Benedict faced a schism from the French and German bishops because of the "deal" so he used the subterfuge of resignation to install a "man of the Council" who has been doing exactly the same thing with regards to the SSPX - regularize them at all costs. I have reason to believe that Benedict is pulling the strings behind this one - not Francis. Of course the aim is as always divide and rule - as they surely shall... now.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #66 on:** March 05, 2016, 02:49:15 PM »

Wessex:

Quote

But I am related to King Alfred!

The enrichment of 19th century European families was done with Jєωιѕн participation and I am not convinced that the Gutmanns and Rothschilds are strangers to one another. Conversions to Catholicism and Lutherism was a way Jews could get on in societies that were generally hostile to them. But we now have someone like Krah acting as a trustee of the bequest on behalf of members of the family contributing to the mystery and steering the money away from any good intention.

If I understand Wessex correctly, I certainly can not altogether disagree. The British royal family is, according to my reading, so judaized by interracial marriage and mongrelization, that one can scarcely any longer trace it to its ancient Saxon, Norman and Frankish roots. Jєωιѕн marranos have firmly ensconced themselves by marriage within the royal line. They have infiltrated the British nobility for centuries.

However, Krah is no such marrano. Not that he is a member of the British royal family by any means. Nevertheless, as it touches the SSPX 'royal family,' of which +Fellay is the current head (king?), Krah does not hide his sympathies. He wears modern Judaism on his sleeve. He all but shouts his pro-Jєωιѕн inclinations and love for Israel from the housetops. And Menzingen makes not one move to disabuse anyone of the notion that they are not in total accord with this SSPX "assets manager."

Not so with Bp. Williamson. The good bishop suggests that the "h0Ɩ0cαųst" does not quite live up to the billing which its vocal advocates have trumpeted for decades. What does Bp. Fellay do? He figuratively pees in his pants. He goes in front of the world press, insisting loudly that Bp. W. has crossed the line, that he has committed a terrible outrage, that he has deeply insulted "our elder brethren," that he is guilty of a great act of (gulp!) "imprudence." Subsequently, legions of SSPX priests, in obedience to their superior, go into the far flung corners of the SSPX empire, declaring like a bunch of trained parrots: "Bp. Williamson was imprudent." "The bishop behaved imprudently." +Williamson was imprudent...imprudent... imprudent! I can not count the number of time that SSPX priests reminded me of Williamson's "imprudence."

But when it comes to Krah, these same SSPX priests suddenly go tongue-tied. At that point, they can not even blurt out: "Polly wants a cracker." They flit about on their perches in total silence. But I must agree with Wessex: Krah probably is, and has been, "steering the money away from any good intention."

Mark 79 · « **Reply #67 on:** March 05, 2016, 05:41:30 PM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

…he is guilty of a great act of (gulp!) "imprudence." Subsequently, legions of SSPX priests, in obedience to their superior, go into the far flung corners of the SSPX empire, declaring like a bunch of trained parrots: "Bp. Williamson was imprudent." "The bishop behaved imprudently." +Williamson was imprudent...imprudent... imprudent! I can not count the number of time that SSPX priests reminded me of Williamson's "imprudence."

But when it comes to Krah, these same SSPX priests suddenly go tongue-tied. At that point, they can not even blurt out: "Polly wants a cracker." They flit about on their perches in total silence. But I must agree with Wessex: Krah probably is, and has been, "steering the money away from any good intention."

Bravo!

When I told Fr. Rostand that Bp. Williamson was 100% correct in every historical detail, no 6,000,000, no homicidal gas chambers, he tried the "imprudent" party line on me, but I asked him rhetorically, "What is imprudent about penetrating one of the most powerful lies of Jesus Christ's most dangerous enemies?" "Nothing could be more prudent," I added eyeball-to-eyeball.

He dropped his gaze and walked away from me without one more word.

That told me what I needed to know about the Krah clique. Big macho guys when they want to impale faithful Catholics, but mewling snivelling catamites for the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

St Ignatius · « **Reply #68 on:** March 05, 2016, 06:49:28 PM »

Quote from: Raphaela

Quote from: Wessex
Perhaps it was unwise of the archbishop to be so indebted to a branch of the Rothschilds and for not looking at the origins of their fortune.

Wessex, they are no more related to the Rothschilds than you are to King Alfred. Nor do the origins of their fortune have anything to do with the Rothschilds and the Czech ironworks - that money all went up in smoke anyway. This family had been Catholic for nearly 100 years when they started supporting the SSPX.

[/size]

I think it's time for another good Catholic "Inquisition!"

Wessex · « **Reply #69 on:** March 05, 2016, 07:01:21 PM »

Quote from: Raphaela

Quote from: Wessex

But I am related to King Alfred!

The enrichment of 19th century European families was done with Jєωιѕн participation and I am not convinced that the Gutmanns and Rothschilds are strangers to one another. Conversions to Catholicism and Lutherism was a way Jews could get on in societies that were generally hostile to them. But we now have someone like Krah acting as a trustee of the bequest on behalf of members of the family contributing to the mystery and steering the money away from any good intention.

And I'm related to King Alfred too. I've traced it back. But so are around a quarter of the English population. In that sense most Jews are related to the Rothschilds. But that's not what was meant here.

Re Jєωιѕн conversions, do you allow anyone a good intention? St Paul perhaps?

We have this problem of identifying those who call themselves Jews today with biblical Jews. The latter can be so far removed from a nomadic population that had grown significantly in Russia and Poland to become a concern of European states during the early part of the last century. But for WW2 these states including the Vatican would not have afforded special treatment to these people and created special laws that are adversely affecting the rest of us. Christianity may have been based on the fortunes of Palestinian tribes but the West in modern times has allowed itself to be remodelled according to the wishes of a tiny population. Incredible. How can conversions occur with this population being so honoured and privileged?

Incredulous · « **Reply #70 on:** March 05, 2016, 11:49:56 PM »

Quote from: Gerard from FE

One thought about the interview is that Bp. Fellay was sandbagged in order to make him look bad for something later on.

After regularization occurs, this interview can be used to tell Fellay to step down as Superior General and Rome can command a more "pastoral" and less divisive leader be put in place.

You hit on an interesting angle.

Why would newChurch treat Bp. Fellay so badly?

Unless it meant that behind closed doors, "regularization" had already occurred.

If the deal was done, it would make sense for Rome to drop their diplomatic face and start to slap +F around.

When will Msgr. Fellay realize that he's surrendered the bulk of Catholic tradition to the enemy?

There's a precedence for such a dramatic betrayal against Our Lord.

What's the possibility that instead of a Cardinal's hat, Bp. Fellay gets "buyers remorse"?

Matthew · « **Reply #71 on:** March 07, 2016, 01:04:02 PM »

Someone posted this to the "SSPX Resistance Supporters" group on Facebook. Very interesting!

A Friend of mine has a husband who is in law enforcement. We have all seen the disastrous interview of Bishop Fellay. As an officer here is his perspective:
I think an agreement with Rome is around the corner. Ill explain why.
Having training and experience in police interviews there are several things that stand out in my mind as far as the demeanor of Fellay and Tim Sebastian during the interview.
Tim's body posture establishes that he is absolutely on the complete offensive. His posture never changes during the interview, and consists of his leaning forward with his glasses low down his nose. This posture psychologically solidifies Tim as being entirely in control and having the morale high ground over Bishop Fellay. Tim's demeanor and posture are like a parent correcting an insolant child. Tim is right, Fellay is wrong. This is not an open interview or discussion. Fellay is basically on the whipping post and has no choice but to discredit his traditionalist statements to Tim. This is Fellay's modernist confession.
During the interview Fellay constantly Nods towards Tim after answering a question. This is a sign of someone who lacks confidence in their answer because it means you are anxiously hoping the person asking the question will be accepting of your explanation. Its an unconciouse psychological wounded animal response. It's a mental recoil against further whipping because youre earnest hoping your adversary buys what youre selling. Its on par with Fellay submitting. This is apart from what Fellay was actually saying, which is a train wreck in itself.
Several times Fellay starts to nod before Tim even finishes a question. This is usually indicative of someone already having a pre-thoughtout answer for the question and they anxiously waiting for the speaker to finish his question to appease him.

Tim presents leading questions to Fellay. A tactic frequently used in acusatory interviews. The tatic is to present the accused with two different "Outs", however they both equally admit guilt. You presnt one admission which is monsterous and terrible, then present another which is more subdued and reseaonable. The person takes the reasonable admission to satisify their conciouse because they feel its the lesser evil of the two, however it's still an admission nonetheless. A simple example of this is say you have a murder. You ask the person, did you kill him in cold blood because youre a murderer, or did you hurt him because you were scared and just trying to get away? The latter is perceieved as a way out however youre still admitting responsibility.
Looking over the interview this is a public relations setup in preparation for an agreement with Rome. Fellay already knew what was going to be asked and Tim was ready to act like he was whipping this radical Bishop around to put him in his place. The powers behind the in play know when they make the agreement all of the controversy behind the Society could come back and bite them in the rear so they decided to make Fellay pay penance for his crime's against Modernism and close loose ends. This is why they addressed every angle of the society which could start controversy (Jews,gαys,Bishop Williamson,Rome's Authority, etc.). Feel free to share this if it seems worthy. We're done here.

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #72 on:** March 07, 2016, 02:53:57 PM »

Quote from: Incredulous

Quote from: Gerard from FE
One thought about the interview is that Bp. Fellay was sandbagged in order to make him look bad for something later on.

After regularization occurs, this interview can be used to tell Fellay to step down as Superior General and Rome can command a more "pastoral" and less divisive leader be put in place.

You hit on an interesting angle.

Why would newChurch treat Bp. Fellay so badly?

Unless it meant that behind closed doors, "regularization" had already occurred.

If the deal was done, it would make sense for Rome to drop their diplomatic face and start to slap +F around.

When will Msgr. Fellay realize that he's surrendered the bulk of Catholic tradition to the enemy?

There's a precedence for such a dramatic betrayal against Our Lord.

What's the possibility that instead of a Cardinal's hat, Bp. Fellay gets "buyers remorse"?

According to a lawyer in Argentina, the Argentinian "recognition" constituted full recognition worldwide. After the announcement, Rorate caeli hired a lawyer to analyze the canonical recognition but after +Fellay's denial they took it out. I found the opinion of the Argentinian lawyer but only in Spanish from Adelate la Fe. I will post it in case they delete the article. Rorate Caeli had more details about the implications and insistence from the lawyer but this is what I could find. See link for more clarity

Quote

http://adelantelafe.com/la-fsspx-reconocida-en-argentina-como-parte-de-la-iglesia-catolica-romana/

ADELANTE LA FE
La FSSPX reconocida en Argentina como parte de la Iglesia Católica Romana (actualizado)
12/04/2015

En el Boletín Oficial de la República Argentina encontramos la siguiente información: a solicitud del Arzobispo de Buenos Aires, Cardenal Poli, se le concede a la Fraternidad Sacerdotal San Pío X fundada por el Arzobispo Marcel Lefebvre, el estatus de “Asociación de Derecho Diocesano.. Sociedad de Vida Apostólica” y se reconoce “que dicha fraternidad, encuentra acreditada su carácter de persona jurídica pública DENTRO DE LA IGLESIA CATÓLICA APOSTÓLICA ROMANA, conforme las normas del Código de Derecho Canónico“.

Con toda la prudencia que conlleva el no tener una mayor información para valorar con precisión el alcance exacto de esta noticia, más allá de los formulismos jurídicos, no parece temerario interpretar este importante gesto del cardenal Poli como un gran movimiento de acercamiento -tal vez la punta del iceberg-, que permite esperar con optimismo un desenlace feliz a corto plazo a nivel global.

ACTUALIZACIÓN 13/4 09:00: Hemos preguntado a un prestigioso jurista argentino para que nos hiciera una valoración de esta noticia, especialmente en el sentido de si podría interpretarse como un mero formulismo jurídico o tramite administrativo, un “gesto” habitual hacia otras organizaciones con problemas canónico-jurídicos o confesiones, con el ánimo “ecuмénico” de facilitarles una ayuda económica, que es casi la única duda que a neófitos de la legislación argentina podría surgir. Esta es la respuesta

“La Iglesia Católica en la Argentina tiene un estatuto único y particular. Según el Código Civil es una persona jurídica de Derecho Público, con un estatus distinto a cualquier otra asociación en el país. Además, constitucionalmente el estado argentino está obligado a sostener el culto católico apostólico romano. Ninguna otra religión tiene ese estatus. Están reconocidos por la Secretaría de Cultos, pero son asociaciones civiles como una empresa o un club deportivo.

Es imposible que una entidad cristiana no católica pueda ser incorporada a la Iglesia Católica como Persona Jurídica de Derecho Público. Que luego los cultos evangélicos, los musulmanes o judíos obtengan subsidios del estado es otra cosa, pero no hay una obligación de subvención como se da con el sueldo de los Obispos, por ejemplo.

La resolución es única y además fue un expediente que claramente inició el Cardenal Primado Mario Aurelio Poli. A mi entender es un gesto único, que incluso excede los avances a los que llegó Benedicto XVI.“.

Como apuntan todos los medios, no es concebible que tal gesto se haya realizado sin el consentimiento de Roma, lo cual podría indicar, como apuntábamos, un próximo reconocimiento canónico de la FSSPX a todos los niveles. No hace mucho se señaló como posible la fórmula de un reconocimiento unilateral de Roma, ad experimentum y sin docuмentos doctrinales. Habrá que esperar.

ACTUALIZACIÓN 13/4 23:00 Hemos publicado un análisis jurídico de esta noticia de sumo interés.

Reproducimos la resolución oficial:

Resolución 25/2015

Bs. As., 17/3/2015

VISTO el Expediente N° 9028/2015 del Registro del MINISTERIO DE RELACIONES EXTERIORES Y CULTO, la Ley N° 24.483 y su Decreto Reglamentario N° 491 de fecha 21 de septiembre de 1995, y

CONSIDERANDO:

Que conforme al Protocolo N° 084/15 de fecha 23 de febrero de 2015, el Arzobispo de Buenos Aires, Mario Aurelio Cardenal POLI, solicita que la “FRATERNIDAD DE LOS APÓSTOLES DE JESÚS Y MARÍA” (FRATERNIDAD SACERDOTAL SAN PÍO X) sea tenida, hasta que encuentre el definitivo encuadramiento jurídico en la Iglesia Universal, como una Asociación de Derecho Diocesano, según lo normado por el canon 298 del Código de Derecho Canónico, in fieri de ser una Sociedad de Vida Apostólica, con todos los beneficios que a ésta le corresponde y dando cuмplimiento a todas las obligaciones que a la misma le refiere, asumiendo también las responsabilidades que competen al Prelado diocesano.

Que dicha fraternidad, encuentra acreditada su carácter de persona jurídica pública dentro de la IGLESIA CATÓLICA APOSTÓLICA ROMANA,conforme las normas del Código de Derecho Canónico.

Que según sus estatutos, aprobados por la autoridad eclesiástica competente, la fraternidad es una sociedad sacerdotal de vida común sin votos, a imitación de las sociedades de las Misiones Extranjeras (conf. Capítulo I, Artículo 1°, Estatutos de la Fraternidad de los Apóstoles de Jesús y María).

Que el Artículo 3°, inciso f) del Decreto N° 491/95 autoriza la inscripción en el Registro creado por Ley N° 24.483, a las personas jurídicas reconocidas por la autoridad eclesiástica, que guardan semejanza o analogía con los institutos de vida consagrada y sociedades de vida apostólica.

Que la institución solicitante ha cuмplido con todos los requisitos exigidos por la normativa vigente, acompañando sus estatutos, decreto de erección y memoria, de acuerdo a lo establecido por la Ley N° 24.483.

Que corresponde hacer lugar a la presente inscripción toda vez que la peticionante encuadra en los términos previstos por el Artículo 3°, inciso f) del Decreto N° 491/95.

Que la presente medida se dicta en uso de las facultades conferidas por el Artículo 17 del Decreto N° 491/95.

Por ello,

EL SECRETARIO

DE CULTO

RESUELVE:

ARTÍCULO 1° — Reconócese como persona jurídica a la “FRATERNIDAD DE LOS APÓSTOLES DE JESÚS Y MARÍA” (FRATERNIDAD SACERDOTAL SAN PÍO X), Asociación de Derecho Diocesano, con sede legal y domicilio especial en la calle Venezuela N° 1318, CIUDAD AUTÓNOMA DE BUENOS AIRES, la que queda inscripta bajo el número TRESCIENTOS OCHENTA Y UNO (381) del Registro de Institutos de Vida Consagrada.

ARTÍCULO 2° — Otórgase a dicha entidad el carácter de entidad de bien público a todos los efectos que correspondan.

ARTÍCULO 3° — Hágase saber que la referida persona jurídica se encuentra beneficiada por el tratamiento dispensado por el Artículo 20, inciso e) de la Ley de Impuesto a las Ganancias (texto ordenado en 1997).

ARTÍCULO 4° — Comuníquese, publíquese, dése a la Dirección Nacional del Registro Oficial y archívese. — Emb. GUILLERMO R. OLIVERI, Secretario de Culto.

[Se puede verificar esta información entrando en la web del Boletín Oficial Argentino indicando en su buscador resolución 25 año 2015]

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #73 on:** March 07, 2016, 05:47:42 PM »

Never mind. The Argentinian lawyer's analysis is nowhere to be found. Has been deleted by R.C. I was hoping the above post had more information than it has.

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #74 on:** March 07, 2016, 06:30:36 PM »

I found it! Not by Rorate Caeli but from a translation of the same analysis translated by Michael Fuller and published on Non Possumus. For clarity go to the link. Spanish is first followed by the English.

Quote

http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com.br/2015/04/analisis-juridico-del-reconocimiento-de.html

ENGLISH

Translated by Michael Fuller.

The news of the recognition, by the Ministry of Religious Affairs of the Argentine Nation, of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X as part of the Roman Catholic Church is a very important legal act because of the implications that it entails.

In no way does this analysis deal with the issues that arose since the consecrations of the four bishops by Archbishop Lefebvre, nor the subsequent rapprochement with the Holy See, and it does not refer to all the questions that have been debated in recent decades about the inclusion of the SSPX into the Roman Catholic Church. It is a strict legal analysis of the Resolution of the Ministry of Religion depending on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Religion of the Argentine Republic. I will try to be as schematic, clear and concise as possible.

1) In the domestic law of Argentina, the Catholic Church has a very special status: it is a Legal Person of Public Law under Art. 33 of the Civil Code, a legal nature which it shares with the national state, provinces, municipalities and autonomous entities. It is the only juridical person of non-state public law, enjoying a hierarchy greater than any association or society imaginable (banks, multinationals, soccer clubs, etc.).

2) Constitutionally, the Argentine state is obligated to support the Apostolic Roman Catholic Religion and it is the official religion of the country, which implies that the Argentine Bishops enjoy an identical compensation to that of a federal judge, in addition to tax exemptions. There are also multiple connections between Church and State, like chaplains in the army, police, prison service and provincial police who are paid by the State, re-labeling the priests into categories of agents of Public Administration (national, provincial or municipal, as appropriate).

3) The Holy See and the Argentine Nation have a Concordat approved by Law 17032 which regulates the international relations between the two states, constituting an important source of public law. From this concordat originates law 24.483, which in its article 1 ° granted civil legal personality to the Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life who enjoy a public legal personality status in the Catholic Church, with its single inscription in a register which it will convey to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

4) Based on the Law 24.483, and its regulatory decree 491, the Archbishop of Buenos Aires Mario Aurelio Cardinal POLI requests that the Priestly Society of St. Pius X is classified in the terms of said law and that it is granted recognition by the Argentine government as an Institute of Consecrated Life. The application dates from February 23, 2015 and the Resolution 25/15 that grants this is dated as of March 17 of the same year, in an extremely rapid process.

5) According to the fundamentals of the decree published in the Official Gazette of the Argentine Republic, Cardinal Poli maintains in his petition that until the SSPX finds the final framework of the Universal Church, that it shall be taken into account as an Association of Diocesan Right in the terms of art.298 of the Code of Canon Law, and also adds that in the process of formation (in fieri,in the course of execution) as a Society of Apostolic Life.

6) If you access the official website of the Ministry of Religious Affairs of Argentina there is a register of recognized religions in the country (Protestants, Buddhists, Africanists, etc.) and a Register of Institutes of Consecrated Life in the terms of Law 24483. There is a unique register for the Catholic Church and forms (with instructions) for its processing are on the web.

7) For its constitution it must be accompanied with, among other things, the decree of establishment of the association, the Constitutions, the consent of ecclesiastical authority, the Memorandum (with structure of the institute, governance, universal supreme Authority and local Authorities, date of installation in the country, main activities that it works out), the appointment of the Main Superior in Argentina, legal venue, etc. The papers must be presented, translated into the national language and the copies duly certified by the Nunciature, or by the Argentine Embassy to the Holy See, or the General Secretariat of the Argentine Episcopal Conference, or by the competent Diocesan Curia by reason of residence (Buenos Aires in this case).

8) In conclusion we can say that: a) There is no doubt that both Cardinal Poli (as Archbishop of Buenos Aires) as much as the Argentine Nation recognize the SSPX as a constituent part of the Roman Catholic Church; b) From the reading of Resolution 25/15, of the domestic legislation of Argentina and the official forms from the website of the Ministry of Religious Affairs there is also no doubt that the process has the express agreement of the SSPX, the only one who can give each and every one of the necessary bureaucratic requirements, mainly the constitutions, governance and authorities; c) The SSPX was registered under n ° 381 between the Institutes of Consecrated Life which are dependents of the Catholic Church. None of the other non-Catholic Christian religions recognized by Argentina are part of the Catholic Church and therefore they do not enjoy the benefits that the law provides to its official religion, beyond the treatment and assistance that the administrations provide for the fulfillment of their purposes.

It is possible to interpret that this legal act of the Argentine State, besides the symbolic value as the land of His Holiness Francis, has a legal effect of great proportions whose consequences extend to the Universal Church. Cardinal Poli, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, is providing, directly and indirectly (through the Argentine state) legal status under the terms of the Universal Code of Canon Law.

I reiterate that this means an advance beyond Benedict XVI. According to ACI Prensa, on June 27th, 2013 in its article "Lefebvrians reaffirm schism and end the dialogue with the Catholic Church", Father Lombardi (who referred to Pope Benedict XVI) is cited saying that "as long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church". And in the same note in a statement from the Holy See from February 2009 was cited warning that: "Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers...do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."

Legal Reasoning must be nourished on Logic. Something cannot "exist and not exist" simultaneously. The Res.25/15 of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Argentina has definitely changed the situation. Today the SSPX -by the initiative of the Archbishop of Buenos Aires- is an association of the faithful under the terms of art.298 of the Code of Canon Law and is on the track to being an Institute of Consecrated Life, enjoying full recognition within the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church.

H.T (Argentine lawyer)

UPDATE

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UPDATE (14/04) At Adelante la Fe we have asked that this prominent lawyer make an assessment of the various information, from both sides, which tries to downplay this news indicating that it is something merely "administrative". This is his response:

"After the news of the recognition of the Argentine state of the SSPX communiques have been released from both parties, that obscure rather than clarify.

"I reread the relevant parts of the Code of Canon Law and am even more convinced that there is no way to consider the SSPX part of the Church in Argentina, nor in the world. It violates any legal logic.

"This [that say's it's] about a purely administrative process -in order to freely exercise the apostolic life- has no basis because for decades they have been in our country with a seminary, churches, schools and other property that may well acquire a non-profit civil association. What is the administrative improvement? ¿Evade Income Tax? To obtain wages and subsidies?

"It would be facing a serious situation where they would not be in communion with Rome but receive benefits in Argentina as "Romans".

"The procedure took about fifteen business days, unfit for any bureaucratic procedure, unless a very tedious application was made, without missing anything and managed in advance with authority. The record is slash fifteen (/ 15) which shows that it started this year and is not merely a note from Poli accompanying a process from 2011, as stated by the Agency DICI.

"It is impossible that this was reached without the agreement of Rome and Ecône."
Publicado por Non Possumus en 16:29