Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Neo-SSPX Lost its Supplied Jurisdiction?  (Read 7063 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Neil Obstat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
  • Reputation: +8278/-692
  • Gender: Male
Neo-SSPX Lost its Supplied Jurisdiction?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2013, 01:10:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Machabees
    Quote from: AJNC

    ...
    The Church exceptionally supplies jurisdiction to an Orthodox cleric only when a Catholic turns to him for sacramental help when in danger of death.

    Yes, because of the valid Sacraments that they have; [though] I believe the validity of the priesthood is in question.  

    I remember reading somewhere that a Pre-Vat. II Pope spoke on this subject; because of the schism over time, one of the necessary: form, matter, or intention, had changed somewhere.  So I do not quite remember if today the Orthodox priesthood is still valid or not, and if so, when that date was when it was pronounced from the Church.

    Does anyone know that answer?


    The schism which separated the Orthodox from the Church was A.D. 1054.

    It isn't the VALIDITY of the Orthodox priesthood that is in question.  It is rather
    a question of LICIT vs. ILLICIT.  Since the matter is on the doctrinal level,
    this licitness is decisive.  The Orthodox reject the necessity of every human
    creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.  Therefore, all their sacraments
    are illicit.  As a point of clarification, independent Roman Rite priests and
    sede priests do not deny this principle, rather there are other issues at stake.

    It was explained to me recently that while their holy orders are valid, they
    are illicit, since the Orthodox prescind in principle from subjection to the
    Roman Pontiff -- that is, they deny the necessity to be subject to the Pope
    of the Catholic Church.  They have other errors that proceed from this,
    including denial of Papal Infallibility (on principle), denial of the Immaculate
    Conception (apparently more of a political position than doctrinal, although
    it certainly appears to be doctrinal), and denial of the Assumption of Our
    Lady (again, a matter of convenience, for the Assumption has been of
    ancient observance - it's only the fact that its DEFINITION was under the
    auspices of papal infallibility, which is tied to the primacy of the Pope and
    his right to authority over "every human creature").  

    Orthodox, like Protestants, provide valid Baptism, for example, but only
    because it is the Baptism of the Roman Catholic Church which they have
    stolen.  It is not their sacrament.  And just as there is no salvation in the
    Protestant heresy, so too there is no salvation in the Orthodox heresy.  A
    child who is baptized by either one and then dies before the age of reason
    is saved by the grace of Baptism, which is from the Catholic Church, which
    is from Our Lord Jesus Christ.  

    But the Orthodox have the other sacraments too, while the Protestants
    only have Baptism -- yes, but the other sacraments are likewise stolen
    from the Catholic Church.  The Orthodox have Confession, Holy
    Communion, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Matrimony and Extreme Unction,
    but these do not belong to the Orthodox, but rather belong to the Catholic
    Church, and the Orthodox use them illicitly.  

    Even though they have valid Eucharist, the people who receive it do not
    thus receive the grace of salvation from the Orthodox, and any grace they
    do receive is from the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.

    Most tragically, anyone who dies as an Orthodox, in abject refusal to be
    subject to the Roman Pontiff, cannot be saved, just as anyone who dies as
    a Protestant, cursing and hating the Catholic Church, cannot be saved.





    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Machabees

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 826
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Neo-SSPX Lost its Supplied Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 05:22:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: Machabees
    Quote from: AJNC

    ...
    The Church exceptionally supplies jurisdiction to an Orthodox cleric only when a Catholic turns to him for sacramental help when in danger of death.

    Yes, because of the valid Sacraments that they have; [though] I believe the validity of the priesthood is in question.  

    I remember reading somewhere that a Pre-Vat. II Pope spoke on this subject; because of the schism over time, one of the necessary: form, matter, or intention, had changed somewhere.  So I do not quite remember if today the Orthodox priesthood is still valid or not, and if so, when that date was when it was pronounced from the Church.

    Does anyone know that answer?


    The schism which separated the Orthodox from the Church was A.D. 1054.

    It isn't the VALIDITY of the Orthodox priesthood that is in question.  It is rather
    a question of LICIT vs. ILLICIT.  Since the matter is on the doctrinal level,
    this licitness is decisive.  The Orthodox reject the necessity of every human
    creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.  Therefore, all their sacraments
    are illicit.  As a point of clarification, independent Roman Rite priests and
    sede priests do not deny this principle, rather there are other issues at stake.

    It was explained to me recently that while their holy orders are valid, they
    are illicit, since the Orthodox prescind in principle from subjection to the
    Roman Pontiff -- that is, they deny the necessity to be subject to the Pope
    of the Catholic Church.  They have other errors that proceed from this,
    including denial of Papal Infallibility (on principle), denial of the Immaculate
    Conception (apparently more of a political position than doctrinal, although
    it certainly appears to be doctrinal), and denial of the Assumption of Our
    Lady (again, a matter of convenience, for the Assumption has been of
    ancient observance - it's only the fact that its DEFINITION was under the
    auspices of papal infallibility, which is tied to the primacy of the Pope and
    his right to authority over "every human creature").  

    Orthodox, like Protestants, provide valid Baptism, for example, but only
    because it is the Baptism of the Roman Catholic Church which they have
    stolen.  It is not their sacrament.  And just as there is no salvation in the
    Protestant heresy, so too there is no salvation in the Orthodox heresy.  A
    child who is baptized by either one and then dies before the age of reason
    is saved by the grace of Baptism, which is from the Catholic Church, which
    is from Our Lord Jesus Christ.  

    But the Orthodox have the other sacraments too, while the Protestants
    only have Baptism -- yes, but the other sacraments are likewise stolen
    from the Catholic Church.  The Orthodox have Confession, Holy
    Communion, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Matrimony and Extreme Unction,
    but these do not belong to the Orthodox, but rather belong to the Catholic
    Church, and the Orthodox use them illicitly.  

    Even though they have valid Eucharist, the people who receive it do not
    thus receive the grace of salvation from the Orthodox, and any grace they
    do receive is from the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.

    Most tragically, anyone who dies as an Orthodox, in abject refusal to be
    subject to the Roman Pontiff, cannot be saved, just as anyone who dies as
    a Protestant, cursing and hating the Catholic Church, cannot be saved.

    Good answer Neil, thanks for clarifying it.

    I remember something also that there was some kind of a decree from a pre-Vatican II Pope about this Orthodox schism in making a pronouncement about the Orthodox priesthood not being [licit] and valid any longer because of a change in the form, matter, or the intention.  Do you remember which Pope and when this was?