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Author Topic: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death  (Read 3092 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 09:07:42 AM »
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  • PG,
    You think it is uncatholic to pray for one's death because you have been saturated with protestant thinking (and really, we all have).  One's death is not "the end".  It is not a "harm".  It is the natural, normal course of our life.  We all have to die and it's not wrong to pray for someone to die, PROVIDED you are praying for their salvation.  If you are praying for someone to go to hell, that is ABSOLUTELY wrong, obviously.  But, i'm talking about the current situation with a bad pope, or in the case of the middle ages, related to a bad king.  One can certainly pray the following prayer, which is full of catholic charity, because we are praying for their spiritual good, and the spiritual good of the Church:

    "Oh Lord, convert Pope Francis to the true faith, so that he may help the Church and right all the wrongs he has caused.  But if he will not help the Church, take him from this world, and provide him with the graces necessary for salvation, lest he cause further spiritual danger and scandal to the faithful."


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #16 on: November 02, 2017, 09:31:08 AM »
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  • "Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira"

    Good article Incredulous, but isn't Prof Plenio, as erudite as he sounds, the founder of a cult? The TFP for the longest time felt Plenio was above the Blessed Mother in Holiness and expected him to rise from the dead ( maybe still?).
    OK- the worm can is opened....


    Offline Barry

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #17 on: November 02, 2017, 10:06:09 AM »
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  • It is highly doubtful to pray for the death of a bad pope.  

    Denzinger 1163,1164, and 1165.  condemned errors(probably of the jesuits) on moral subjects from decree 1679.  

    1163 - If you act with due moderation, you can without mortal sin be sad about the moral life of someone and rejoice about his natural death, seek it with ineffectual desire and long for it, not indeed from dissatisfaction with the person but because of some temporal emolument.

    1164 - It is licit with an absolute desire to wish for the death of a father, not indeed as an evil to the father, but as a good to him who desires it, for a rich inheritance will surely come his way.  

    1165 - It is licit for a son to rejoice over  the parricide of his parent perpetrated by himself in drunkenness, because of the great riches that came from it by inheritance.  

    These three condemned errors(especially 1163 and 1164) clearly cast a shadow of doubt over the practice of praying for the death of a bad pope.  I think 1164 is the strongest to come to my defense.  The pope is the "father" of the church and very much comparable.  I certainly wont be praying for the popes death, especially while we all agree that he is a material heretic.  If he was in the state of grace and on his deathbed suffering, then we could pray for his death, which would better mean we are praying for his entry into heaven.  

    These three examples do show something wrong in praying for someone's death - when it is done out of a sinful desire to personally profit from it, and without concern for the person whose death it sought.  We can all agree on that.

    However, in these examples, it is not the case that the person whose death is sought has done great evil, and is in danger or doing even greater evil, so the application to the current discussion is rendered of little meaning.

    And, here is a contrary example.  We know that Our Lord will judge us on how we treat others, like when we give drink to the thirsty - "As much as you did it to the least of these, you did it until Me", He will say to the lambs.  So, giving water to the thirsty is good, right?  I think we can all agree on that as well.  And withholding water will number us among the goats, that go into perdition.  But what if an abortionist, suffering from severe dehydration, were to ask of you a drink, so that he could go to his abortuary and commit murders against the unborn?  Is it wrong to withhold the water?  Should that become condemned proposition 1166 or such?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #18 on: November 02, 2017, 11:16:29 AM »
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  • You would be obliged to give them something to drink and save their life.  Their intent to commit murder in the future is not your concern, nor your sin.

    Now, if they received the drink and regained health, and THEN went to commit murder, it is arguable that you could stop them from murder, using force.  But that situation is separate from giving them a drink.

    You can't arrest/condemn a person for a future crime.  This isn't Tom Cruise in "Minority Report".

    Offline PG

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #19 on: November 02, 2017, 12:19:40 PM »
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  • However, in these examples, it is not the case that the person whose death is sought has done great evil, and is in danger or doing even greater evil, so the application to the current discussion is rendered of little meaning.

    denz 1163 addresses your particular concern best.  However, understand that this condemned error also has a lot of distraction in it, making it difficult to understand what is most likely condemned in this error.  In my opinion, the essence of this error lies in this passage - 

    "you can without mortal sin be sad about the moral life of someone and rejoice about his natural death, seek it with ineffectual desire and long for it"

    That sounds like what we are talking about here with the bad pope death wish.  I find 1164 to also be very useful, but you may not understand why.  1163 if you cut through the fog is easy enough to understand what the error is, and how it is similar enough to our discussion.



    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline PG

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #20 on: November 02, 2017, 12:29:51 PM »
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  • Pax Vobis - what bishop approved of that prayer?  Because I find that prayer pathetic and therefore repulsive.  If you are living under a wicked king it would be more appropriate to pray that his kingdom to be sacked by a competing king(dom).  That occurred via prophets throughout the old testament.  That is something you can pray for.  But as for the pope, the similarity between a pope and a biological father is too similar for me to consider it exempt/distant from the denz errors I have shown.  And, it is not a sin or even outside of the practice of the papacy to resign.  It has resolved papal problems before.  It is much more probable as an opinion.  It is certainly safe.  Yours, however imo is not.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #21 on: November 03, 2017, 09:33:50 PM »
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  • One can pray for the removal of someone that can harm souls or body. How God goes about it is His business. His Will be done.

    Death is not the only way to remove the person from office.

    I believe that Bergolio and all the Vatican II church popes are punishment upon the world, and that I am most fortunate that for all my sins of the past God has not included me with them:

    "And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity". (2 Thes 2:10-12 )

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline PG

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #22 on: November 03, 2017, 10:37:35 PM »
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  • These bad popes are not a punishment for a sinful world.  These popes are punishment for a sinful church.  And, these bad popes should wake us up to the perfection God expects of us.  And, praying for such a popes death is not a manifestation of that perfection.  We have to believe that the holy ghost guides the church in the selection of a pope.  So, for us to just pray for such a popes death is a denial of that truth.  God says vengeance is his.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #23 on: November 03, 2017, 11:07:32 PM »
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  • PG,
    You have a unique interpretation of vengeance and God's will, which I disagree with.  Firstly, the fact that pope Francis was elected pope does not mean that God condones his errors and scandals. Just because the Holy Ghost "guided" the selection of Francis doesn't mean that he isn't called to sanctity just like the rest of us. And, obviously, Francis is failing miserably, publicly, BOLDLY and without any hint of change whatsoever.  In fact, he's not only failing, he's ATTACKING the truth and trying to subvert it.  Is this God's will?  ABSOLUTLELY NOT!  Is it wrong to pray for a holy pope and that Francis be removed from office?  How can that be wrong?

    Secondly, There's nothing imperfect about praying for a better life, a better church, a good and holy pope who will consecrate Russia and, instead of offering scandal to the laity, will offer a pious example which we can follow.  If God withholds answering our prayer, then so be it, we accept His answer.  

    Thirdly, it's not "vengeful" to pray that some suffering or problem be fixed.  That's one of the reasons why prayer exists.  Again, you act like since Francis is the pope that whatever he does is holy or sanctioned by God, therefore we must accept it as coming from the Almighty Himself.  This is such a V2 misunderstanding of the papacy, which has been falsely explained to many, so that they believe the pope is some kind of oracle or spiritual savant.  He is nothing of the sort, but a man like us, with an incredibly important job to fulfill and an awesome responsibility to uphold for the Faith - something he's rebelling against openly and frightfully.  

    Worshipping the office of the papacy is not catholic.  The pope is just a man who can go to hell like the rest of us.  And Francis needs all the prayers in the world, for he has "itching ears" and is preaching the false gospel of V2, and thereby dragging many, many millions of souls with him to error and, God forbid, damnation.

    Vengeance would be to wish the pope harm.  I do not.  What I wish for is that he convert, either during his papacy or on his death bed.  Too many souls are being lost everyday.  The pope's soul is not more important than anyone else's.  All must be saved. 

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #24 on: November 04, 2017, 01:26:33 AM »
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  • Wow, you'd think with all those prayers at all those "masses"...
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #25 on: November 04, 2017, 12:59:49 PM »
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  • DZ, this assumes he's the pope.  Insert any pope from the Middle Ages who lived a disordered life and fathered children and the argument is the same from my side.  Putting aside the issue of sedevacantism (which many, obsessively, find hard to do) I can't see why it's wrong to pray to be freed from the reign of a bad pope/king.  As canon law tells us, the pope is judged by no man, therefore he is only judged by God.  Therefore we have recourse to God to remove/judge him, if he be a scandal.  


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #26 on: November 05, 2017, 04:20:25 PM »
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  • "Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira"

    Good article Incredulous, but isn't Prof Plenio, as erudite as he sounds, the founder of a cult? The TFP for the longest time felt Plenio was above the Blessed Mother in Holiness and expected him to rise from the dead ( maybe still?).
    OK- the worm can is opened....

    Thank you for the slow, softball pitch Josefamendez.

    Dr. Plinio's TFP was infiltrated and hijacked.

    He had commissioned Atila Guimaraes to research and expose the non Catholic theology of Vatican II.

    After Dr. Plinio's death, the new TFP leadership fired Atila and surrendered to the Conciliar schismatics.

    The organization's cultish rituals you speak of, began after their VII sellout.

    For more on this illustrious Catholic fighter, I defer to the following biography from a gentleman scholar, who really knew Dr. Plinio.

    Biography of Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
    A Life Dedicated to Combat
    Atila Sinke Guimarães
    Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (1908-1995) was born into two traditional Brazilian families, his mother’s family from São Paulo – Ribeiro dos Santos – and his father’s from Pernambuco – Corrêa de Oliveira. The former was known for its social distinction, the latter for its intelligence and oratory skills. Plinio inherited the characteristics of both families.

    When young, Plinio was the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil
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    After being formed in the Jesuit school of São Paulo and receiving a degree in Law, he entered the Catholic Movement and became the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil. The force of this Movement was such that in 1934 it elected Plinio, at age 24, to the National Congress, making him not only the country’s youngest representative, but also the one who received the most votes. In the House he fought to defend the civil rights of the Church and to pass laws, which for a long time upheld Catholic principles and institutions in the country.

    Subsequent to his term in the House, he earned a chair in History of Civilization at the Law Faculty of São Paulo and another in Modern and Contemporary History at the Catholic Pontifical University, also in São Paulo.

    In 1933, he was asked by the Cardinal of São Paulo to direct the Archdiocesan weekly journal O Legionário (The Legionary). For many years he was its editor and gathered around him a group of distinguished writers who followed him on a lifetime journey. From a simple Archdiocesan bulletin the paper was transformed in the late ‘30s and ‘40s into the most influential Catholic organ of the country.

    The writers of O Legionário became famous for their pugnacious stand against Communism, nαzιsm and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, as well as for defending Christian Civilization and championing a culture coherent with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. In the religious sphere, they combated the nascent Progressivism, which was rising from the ashes of Modernism with the same poison, but new tactics, higher ambitions and a more prudent posturing.
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    Fr. Castro Mayer alongside Prof. Plinio and theLegionário team of writers
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    Those writers considered themselves continuers of the ultramontane movement of the 19th century in Europe. Among others, two priests joined the group: Fr. Geraldo Sigaud and Fr. Antônio de Castro Mayer.

    In 1940, Prof. Plinio was chosen to be president of Catholic Action in São Paulo. From this post, he carefully watched the insidious progressivist infiltration into the religious milieu. By 1943 he fully realized its maneuvers and wrote a book denouncing its strategy – In Defense of the Catholic Action(Em Defesa da Ação Católica). Later he described the launching of that book as a kamikazeoperation: he delayed the influence of Progressivism in Brazil, but blew up his own career along with the target.

    Indeed, the Cardinal of São Paulo who favored his work died and, after the short term of another, a progressivist took his place in 1944. Prof. Plinio lost the presidency of Catholic Action and the direction of O Legionário. A phase of persecution and ostracism began.

    He and the two mentioned priests agreed to continue the Counter-Revolution despite the consequences. Sometime later, Fr. Sigaud was made Bishop, followed by Fr. Castro Mayer. The union of the three was so strong that each Bishop adopted in his coat-of-arms the rampant lion Prof. Plinio had chosen to symbolize his fight.

    A new monthly paper, edited and published in São Paulo with the approval of Castro Mayer, now Bishop of Campos, took the name Catolicismo (1951) and recommenced the public fight. The Catolicismo group attracted younger persons, who drew in yet others. With this growing movement, in 1960 he founded the Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property – the TFP.
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    Published in 1959 Revolution and Counter-Revolutionbecame the handbook for the TFPs everywhere
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    To provide guidelines for that group, in 1959 Prof. Plinio wrote Revolution and Counter-Revolution – R-CR, which became his masterpiece. In it he analyzed the Revolution’s historical process that started in the Middle Ages. The Renaissance and Humanism were its first manifestations; later it generated Protestantism, the French Revolution and Communism.

    He also described its later phases: namely, the Fourth Revolution (the Cultural Revolution of the ‘60s), which tends toward Tribalism and a Pentecostal religion; the metamorphosis of Communism after the dissolution of the USSR; the infiltration of Progressivism in the Church, which changed the focus of the R-CR fight. Now, it had to be fought inside the Church.

    The ideals of R-CR extended to other countries. In 1995, at his death, there were TFPs and similar organizations in 26 countries.

    In the early ‘60s, Brazil was threatened by Communism, supported by Progressivism in the Church. Both were proponents of a socialist land reform to destabilize farmers, the backbone of the country's economy. With economist Mendonça de Freitas, Prof. Plinio wrote a book against land reform and invited the Bishops to sign it: Agrarian Reform – a Question of Conscience (1963). A success, the book became the pivot for an enormous public reaction against Communism. An undesired byproduct of this general dissatisfaction was a military coup that deposed the brazenly red president-to-be and installed a socialist dictatorship in the country.
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    Prof. Plinio leaves Rome when he realizes he has done all he could at the Council
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    In 1959, John XXIII announced his intention to convene a Council. Prof. Plinio warned Archbishop Sigaud and Bishop Mayer that they should study and prepare themselves intensively or they would be defeated by the progressivists at the Council. Unfortunately, they did not heed his advice.

    Notwithstanding, Prof. Plinio, along with about 20 laymen, accompanied the Bishops to Rome for the First Session with the hope that they would have a positive influence. With these laymen he organized two petitions, signed by hundreds of Bishops: one asking the Council to condemn Communism; the other asking the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as commanded in Fatima.

    He sought out the Bishops of Communism-dominated countries asking them to affirm that the Church-Communism coexistence is against Catholic doctrine. Ukrainian Archbishop Ivan Bucko agreed to state this at the Council. Prof. Plinio wrote an intervention for him, but Msgr. Bucko changed his mind and did not address the topic in the Council. In May 1964, Prof. Plinio published that study: The Church and the Communist State: The Impossible Coexistence.

    As the first session came to its end, Prof. Plinio realized that the progressivists were in complete control and suggested that the two Brazilian Bishops unmask their maneuvers. He proposed that they solemnly walk from the door of St. Peter’s Basilica to the main table in the conciliar hall, passing by the 2,300 Bishops assembled there. Then, before the whole assembly, they should expose the progressivist agenda for the Council and state that they were leaving in protest. Outside the doors, journalists would be waiting to interview them and spread the news. This dramatic rupture was meant to abort the entire spectacle of Vatican II. Unfortunately, the Bishops did not follow his advice.

    He did not return to the Council, which followed that progressivist path until its end.

    In 1965, Prof. Plinio wrote a book denouncing the popular new dialogue with communists: Unperceived Ideological Transshipment and Dialogue. Although the approach of the study was temporal, it also applied to the religious dialogue being promoted by John XXIII and Paul VI insofar as dialogue was used not to convert heretics but to make them comfortable in their errors.

    After the Council’s closing, he received in Brazil the two returning Bishops. They had signed all its docuмents and told him, [paraphrasing]: “Now, we need to work on our group so they will accept the Council.” Prof. Plinio opposed the proposition, saying: “Your Excellencies can fry or cook the Council any way you want. I will never eat it.”
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    Archbishop Sigaud tries to implement the Council - Prof. Plinio disagrees
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    There was no rupture, but this divergence projected shadows on their decades-old relationship.

    Eventually, the two Bishops would break their agreement to stand together in the fight. Some years later Archbishop Sigaud distanced himself. He publicly supported the socialist military regime. His reason? “The military regime started the Reign of Mary predicted in Fatima”…

    In the mid ‘70s a lawsuit against the TFP called on Bishop Mayer to testify. He made a sworn statement that throughout more than 40 years of close collaboration he had never seen anything in TFP or in Prof. Plinio’s actions or thoughts that went against Catholic doctrine.

    However, in 1983, he took a public stand against Prof. Plinio. Why this change?

    In the late ‘70s, a certain Fr. Fernando Rifan – an expert in intrigue – was gaining the ear of Bishop Mayer. Rifan, who hated Prof. Plinio and the TFP, induced the Bishop to soften his position against Progressivism to the point that Bishop Mayer in some talks assumed the principles of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. In Rome he was photographed holding hands with JPII. Consequently, his visits to São Paulo ceased.

    In the early ‘80s, a rancorous high-school teacher, Orlando Fedeli, left the TFP because he felt his talents were not sufficiently recognized. At his rupture he wrote three letters disclosing “evidence” that Prof. Plinio had transformed the TFP into “a cult to worship himself and his mother.” Soon after he left, he sold his story to one of the largest Brazilian newspapers with close ties to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ – O Estado de São Paulo – which started a boisterous defamatory campaign.
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    Facing multiple defamatory campaigns with serenity and firmness
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    Encouraged by Rifan, Fedeli consulted with Bishop Mayer about a litany that two naïve teenagers had made in honor of Prof. Plinio’s mother. As soon as that litany was discovered, it had been forbidden by Dr. Plinio, but Fedeli did not inform Bishop Mayer of this “detail.” He presented the litany as if it were a prayer commonly said throughout the TFP with Prof. Plinio’s approval. Bishop Mayer condemned the litany as going against Catholic doctrine. This was in 1983.

    This condemnation and Fedeli’s accusations were duly refuted and the docuмents were reviewed by famous theologians in Spain. They issued a verdict affirming the refutation to be sound and Bishop Mayer’s condemnation “poorly made and difficult to understand.” It judged that some of the litany’s ejaculations were “naïve, others ambiguous and yet others extravagant” and praised Prof. Plinio for having forbidden its recitation. But they considered it “exaggerated to label them as heterodox or blasphemous, not taking into consideration the relative nature of the language being used.” Bishop Mayer judged it prudent not to reply.

    The Brazilian TFP published 2,000 copies of that refutation and full-page newspaper ads to inform the public of this judgment favoring Prof. Plinio.

    In response, Fedeli went to Spain to try to bribe the principle theologian who made the review. He was duly shown out of the room. Fr. Rifan, who at the time was very close to the Society of St. Pius X, spread the same lies to this organization, which continues to propagate them among its priests and seminarians.

    This campaign is just one in a list of many defamatory offensives made against Prof. Plinio.

    The Brazilian TFP was also condemned at various times by the very progressivist Brazilian Bishops. Some of these condemnations were duly answered; others not, simply because they were too biased to be credible.

    Altogether Prof. Plinio published 15 books.
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    A TFP street campaign celebrating the defeat of divorce
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    He also spearheaded many petition drives carried out by the TFP including:[/font][/size]

    • A petition against divorce in Brazil, 1966, 1 million signatures;
    • A request to Paul VI to stop the communist infiltration in the Church, 1968, 2 million signatures total in Brazil, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay.
    • An entreaty for the liberation and independence of Lithuania, 1990, 5.2 million signatures.
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    It was Prof. Plinio who asked Arnaldo Xavier da Silveira to study Paul VI’s New Mass (1969) as well as the possibility of a heretic Pope. Silveira’s book was published inPortuguese (1972) and in French (1975). [An English version is available here]

    After Paul VI launched Liberation Theology in Medellin, Colombia (1968), Prof. Plinio made several campaigns against this new thrust of communist infiltration in the Church.

    In 1974 he wrote a position of resistance against the Vatican Ostpolitik, that is, its collaboration with the communist regimes. This Declaration of Resistance, which made him the pioneer of Catholic Resistance, was published in 21 newspapers in 10 countries.

    In 1982 he asked me to write and publish a collection analyzing Vatican II, which I did under his guidance and encouragement.

    Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira was the Catholic giant who, for many decades, held Communism at bay in South America. He also held back the advance of Progressivism in the Church as much as he could.

    One aspect that official biographies of this Catholic thinker and man of action do not address is the moral and physical sufferings Prof. Plinio endured.

    In the mid ‘70s, seeing how worldly and lukewarm TFP members had become, he offered his life to Our Lady to redeem that situation. Some days later, on February 3, 1975, he was in a serious car accident, suffering a broken hand, arm, leg and hip as well as severe injuries to his eyelids, lips and teeth. These graves lesions demanded multiple surgeries, causing him enormous moral and physical sufferings. The arm, leg and hip surgeries had to be made twice, still without success. The effects of that accident remained with him to the end of his days, obliging him to rely on crutches or a wheelchair.
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    A tragic car accident that won more
    20 years of fight for the TFPs
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    This suffering bought 20 more years of life for the TFPs. Toward the end, however, he confided to some friends: “If I were not in a wheelchair, they would expel me from the TFP.” He was referring to the directors who in theory followed his orientation, but in practice moved the TFP to a position of indifference and mediocrity.

    When he was dying in the hospital in 1995, those directors lost no time in sending a letterto the Cardinal Primate of Brazil, committing the TFP not to speak publicly against Vatican II, the New Mass or the Pope.

    A few years after his death, a split among his followers over the question of authority took place. Today, one faction – which includes the American TFP – upholds that same agreement with the Vatican; the other completely adhered to the Conciliar Church. Many members of the latter became priests and have comfortable ecclesiastical careers.

    Sadly, both sides had become weary of the fight against Progressivism, had reduced Prof. Plinio to a museum artifact and merged – in different ways and degrees – with that same enemy against which Prof. Plinio had fought his entire life.
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    With his symbol the rampant lion

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline bernadette

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #27 on: November 05, 2017, 07:23:17 PM »
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  • Did the NO priest in article say they prayed for the pope to die?  I thought he said they “can’t wait” for the pope to die....on that note, neither can I...

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #28 on: November 05, 2017, 08:45:25 PM »
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  • Thank you for the slow, softball pitch Josefamendez.

    Dr. Plinio's TFP was infiltrated and hijacked.

    He had commissioned Atila Guimaraes to research and expose the non Catholic theology of Vatican II.

    After Dr. Plinio's death, the new TFP leadership fired Atila and surrendered to the Conciliar schismatics.

    The organization's cultish rituals you speak of, began after their VII sellout.

    For more on this illustrious Catholic fighter, I defer to the following biography from a gentleman scholar, who really knew Dr. Plinio.

    Biography of Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
    A Life Dedicated to Combat
    Atila Sinke Guimarães
    Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (1908-1995) was born into two traditional Brazilian families, his mother’s family from São Paulo – Ribeiro dos Santos – and his father’s from Pernambuco – Corrêa de Oliveira. The former was known for its social distinction, the latter for its intelligence and oratory skills. Plinio inherited the characteristics of both families.

    When young, Plinio was the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil
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    After being formed in the Jesuit school of São Paulo and receiving a degree in Law, he entered the Catholic Movement and became the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil. The force of this Movement was such that in 1934 it elected Plinio, at age 24, to the National Congress, making him not only the country’s youngest representative, but also the one who received the most votes. In the House he fought to defend the civil rights of the Church and to pass laws, which for a long time upheld Catholic principles and institutions in the country.

    Subsequent to his term in the House, he earned a chair in History of Civilization at the Law Faculty of São Paulo and another in Modern and Contemporary History at the Catholic Pontifical University, also in São Paulo.

    In 1933, he was asked by the Cardinal of São Paulo to direct the Archdiocesan weekly journal O Legionário (The Legionary). For many years he was its editor and gathered around him a group of distinguished writers who followed him on a lifetime journey. From a simple Archdiocesan bulletin the paper was transformed in the late ‘30s and ‘40s into the most influential Catholic organ of the country.

    The writers of O Legionário became famous for their pugnacious stand against Communism, nαzιsm and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, as well as for defending Christian Civilization and championing a culture coherent with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. In the religious sphere, they combated the nascent Progressivism, which was rising from the ashes of Modernism with the same poison, but new tactics, higher ambitions and a more prudent posturing.
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    Fr. Castro Mayer alongside Prof. Plinio and theLegionário team of writers
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    Those writers considered themselves continuers of the ultramontane movement of the 19th century in Europe. Among others, two priests joined the group: Fr. Geraldo Sigaud and Fr. Antônio de Castro Mayer.

    In 1940, Prof. Plinio was chosen to be president of Catholic Action in São Paulo. From this post, he carefully watched the insidious progressivist infiltration into the religious milieu. By 1943 he fully realized its maneuvers and wrote a book denouncing its strategy – In Defense of the Catholic Action(Em Defesa da Ação Católica). Later he described the launching of that book as a kamikazeoperation: he delayed the influence of Progressivism in Brazil, but blew up his own career along with the target.

    Indeed, the Cardinal of São Paulo who favored his work died and, after the short term of another, a progressivist took his place in 1944. Prof. Plinio lost the presidency of Catholic Action and the direction of O Legionário. A phase of persecution and ostracism began.

    He and the two mentioned priests agreed to continue the Counter-Revolution despite the consequences. Sometime later, Fr. Sigaud was made Bishop, followed by Fr. Castro Mayer. The union of the three was so strong that each Bishop adopted in his coat-of-arms the rampant lion Prof. Plinio had chosen to symbolize his fight.

    A new monthly paper, edited and published in São Paulo with the approval of Castro Mayer, now Bishop of Campos, took the name Catolicismo (1951) and recommenced the public fight. The Catolicismo group attracted younger persons, who drew in yet others. With this growing movement, in 1960 he founded the Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property – the TFP.
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    Published in 1959 Revolution and Counter-Revolutionbecame the handbook for the TFPs everywhere
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    To provide guidelines for that group, in 1959 Prof. Plinio wrote Revolution and Counter-Revolution – R-CR, which became his masterpiece. In it he analyzed the Revolution’s historical process that started in the Middle Ages. The Renaissance and Humanism were its first manifestations; later it generated Protestantism, the French Revolution and Communism.

    He also described its later phases: namely, the Fourth Revolution (the Cultural Revolution of the ‘60s), which tends toward Tribalism and a Pentecostal religion; the metamorphosis of Communism after the dissolution of the USSR; the infiltration of Progressivism in the Church, which changed the focus of the R-CR fight. Now, it had to be fought inside the Church.

    The ideals of R-CR extended to other countries. In 1995, at his death, there were TFPs and similar organizations in 26 countries.

    In the early ‘60s, Brazil was threatened by Communism, supported by Progressivism in the Church. Both were proponents of a socialist land reform to destabilize farmers, the backbone of the country's economy. With economist Mendonça de Freitas, Prof. Plinio wrote a book against land reform and invited the Bishops to sign it: Agrarian Reform – a Question of Conscience (1963). A success, the book became the pivot for an enormous public reaction against Communism. An undesired byproduct of this general dissatisfaction was a military coup that deposed the brazenly red president-to-be and installed a socialist dictatorship in the country.
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    Prof. Plinio leaves Rome when he realizes he has done all he could at the Council
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    In 1959, John XXIII announced his intention to convene a Council. Prof. Plinio warned Archbishop Sigaud and Bishop Mayer that they should study and prepare themselves intensively or they would be defeated by the progressivists at the Council. Unfortunately, they did not heed his advice.

    Notwithstanding, Prof. Plinio, along with about 20 laymen, accompanied the Bishops to Rome for the First Session with the hope that they would have a positive influence. With these laymen he organized two petitions, signed by hundreds of Bishops: one asking the Council to condemn Communism; the other asking the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as commanded in Fatima.

    He sought out the Bishops of Communism-dominated countries asking them to affirm that the Church-Communism coexistence is against Catholic doctrine. Ukrainian Archbishop Ivan Bucko agreed to state this at the Council. Prof. Plinio wrote an intervention for him, but Msgr. Bucko changed his mind and did not address the topic in the Council. In May 1964, Prof. Plinio published that study: The Church and the Communist State: The Impossible Coexistence.

    As the first session came to its end, Prof. Plinio realized that the progressivists were in complete control and suggested that the two Brazilian Bishops unmask their maneuvers. He proposed that they solemnly walk from the door of St. Peter’s Basilica to the main table in the conciliar hall, passing by the 2,300 Bishops assembled there. Then, before the whole assembly, they should expose the progressivist agenda for the Council and state that they were leaving in protest. Outside the doors, journalists would be waiting to interview them and spread the news. This dramatic rupture was meant to abort the entire spectacle of Vatican II. Unfortunately, the Bishops did not follow his advice.

    He did not return to the Council, which followed that progressivist path until its end.

    In 1965, Prof. Plinio wrote a book denouncing the popular new dialogue with communists: Unperceived Ideological Transshipment and Dialogue. Although the approach of the study was temporal, it also applied to the religious dialogue being promoted by John XXIII and Paul VI insofar as dialogue was used not to convert heretics but to make them comfortable in their errors.

    After the Council’s closing, he received in Brazil the two returning Bishops. They had signed all its docuмents and told him, [paraphrasing]: “Now, we need to work on our group so they will accept the Council.” Prof. Plinio opposed the proposition, saying: “Your Excellencies can fry or cook the Council any way you want. I will never eat it.”
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    Archbishop Sigaud tries to implement the Council - Prof. Plinio disagrees
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    There was no rupture, but this divergence projected shadows on their decades-old relationship.

    Eventually, the two Bishops would break their agreement to stand together in the fight. Some years later Archbishop Sigaud distanced himself. He publicly supported the socialist military regime. His reason? “The military regime started the Reign of Mary predicted in Fatima”…

    In the mid ‘70s a lawsuit against the TFP called on Bishop Mayer to testify. He made a sworn statement that throughout more than 40 years of close collaboration he had never seen anything in TFP or in Prof. Plinio’s actions or thoughts that went against Catholic doctrine.

    However, in 1983, he took a public stand against Prof. Plinio. Why this change?

    In the late ‘70s, a certain Fr. Fernando Rifan – an expert in intrigue – was gaining the ear of Bishop Mayer. Rifan, who hated Prof. Plinio and the TFP, induced the Bishop to soften his position against Progressivism to the point that Bishop Mayer in some talks assumed the principles of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. In Rome he was photographed holding hands with JPII. Consequently, his visits to São Paulo ceased.

    In the early ‘80s, a rancorous high-school teacher, Orlando Fedeli, left the TFP because he felt his talents were not sufficiently recognized. At his rupture he wrote three letters disclosing “evidence” that Prof. Plinio had transformed the TFP into “a cult to worship himself and his mother.” Soon after he left, he sold his story to one of the largest Brazilian newspapers with close ties to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ – O Estado de São Paulo – which started a boisterous defamatory campaign.
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    Facing multiple defamatory campaigns with serenity and firmness
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    Encouraged by Rifan, Fedeli consulted with Bishop Mayer about a litany that two naïve teenagers had made in honor of Prof. Plinio’s mother. As soon as that litany was discovered, it had been forbidden by Dr. Plinio, but Fedeli did not inform Bishop Mayer of this “detail.” He presented the litany as if it were a prayer commonly said throughout the TFP with Prof. Plinio’s approval. Bishop Mayer condemned the litany as going against Catholic doctrine. This was in 1983.

    This condemnation and Fedeli’s accusations were duly refuted and the docuмents were reviewed by famous theologians in Spain. They issued a verdict affirming the refutation to be sound and Bishop Mayer’s condemnation “poorly made and difficult to understand.” It judged that some of the litany’s ejaculations were “naïve, others ambiguous and yet others extravagant” and praised Prof. Plinio for having forbidden its recitation. But they considered it “exaggerated to label them as heterodox or blasphemous, not taking into consideration the relative nature of the language being used.” Bishop Mayer judged it prudent not to reply.

    The Brazilian TFP published 2,000 copies of that refutation and full-page newspaper ads to inform the public of this judgment favoring Prof. Plinio.

    In response, Fedeli went to Spain to try to bribe the principle theologian who made the review. He was duly shown out of the room. Fr. Rifan, who at the time was very close to the Society of St. Pius X, spread the same lies to this organization, which continues to propagate them among its priests and seminarians.

    This campaign is just one in a list of many defamatory offensives made against Prof. Plinio.

    The Brazilian TFP was also condemned at various times by the very progressivist Brazilian Bishops. Some of these condemnations were duly answered; others not, simply because they were too biased to be credible.

    Altogether Prof. Plinio published 15 books.
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    A TFP street campaign celebrating the defeat of divorce
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    He also spearheaded many petition drives carried out by the TFP including:[/font][/size]

    • A petition against divorce in Brazil, 1966, 1 million signatures;
    • A request to Paul VI to stop the communist infiltration in the Church, 1968, 2 million signatures total in Brazil, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay.
    • An entreaty for the liberation and independence of Lithuania, 1990, 5.2 million signatures.
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    It was Prof. Plinio who asked Arnaldo Xavier da Silveira to study Paul VI’s New Mass (1969) as well as the possibility of a heretic Pope. Silveira’s book was published inPortuguese (1972) and in French (1975). [An English version is available here]

    After Paul VI launched Liberation Theology in Medellin, Colombia (1968), Prof. Plinio made several campaigns against this new thrust of communist infiltration in the Church.

    In 1974 he wrote a position of resistance against the Vatican Ostpolitik, that is, its collaboration with the communist regimes. This Declaration of Resistance, which made him the pioneer of Catholic Resistance, was published in 21 newspapers in 10 countries.

    In 1982 he asked me to write and publish a collection analyzing Vatican II, which I did under his guidance and encouragement.

    Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira was the Catholic giant who, for many decades, held Communism at bay in South America. He also held back the advance of Progressivism in the Church as much as he could.

    One aspect that official biographies of this Catholic thinker and man of action do not address is the moral and physical sufferings Prof. Plinio endured.

    In the mid ‘70s, seeing how worldly and lukewarm TFP members had become, he offered his life to Our Lady to redeem that situation. Some days later, on February 3, 1975, he was in a serious car accident, suffering a broken hand, arm, leg and hip as well as severe injuries to his eyelids, lips and teeth. These graves lesions demanded multiple surgeries, causing him enormous moral and physical sufferings. The arm, leg and hip surgeries had to be made twice, still without success. The effects of that accident remained with him to the end of his days, obliging him to rely on crutches or a wheelchair.
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    A tragic car accident that won more
    20 years of fight for the TFPs
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    This suffering bought 20 more years of life for the TFPs. Toward the end, however, he confided to some friends: “If I were not in a wheelchair, they would expel me from the TFP.” He was referring to the directors who in theory followed his orientation, but in practice moved the TFP to a position of indifference and mediocrity.

    When he was dying in the hospital in 1995, those directors lost no time in sending a letterto the Cardinal Primate of Brazil, committing the TFP not to speak publicly against Vatican II, the New Mass or the Pope.

    A few years after his death, a split among his followers over the question of authority took place. Today, one faction – which includes the American TFP – upholds that same agreement with the Vatican; the other completely adhered to the Conciliar Church. Many members of the latter became priests and have comfortable ecclesiastical careers.

    Sadly, both sides had become weary of the fight against Progressivism, had reduced Prof. Plinio to a museum artifact and merged – in different ways and degrees – with that same enemy against which Prof. Plinio had fought his entire life.
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    With his symbol the rampant lion
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    You really should be starting a new thread with all this, Incredulous.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: N.O. Priests pray for the Pope's death
    « Reply #29 on: November 05, 2017, 10:28:36 PM »
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  • Did the NO priest in article say they prayed for the pope to die?  I thought he said they “can’t wait” for the pope to die....on that note, neither can I...
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    I heard a sermon today along this line. The priest gave a litany of offenses then suddenly stopped with a moral. It took about 5 minutes.
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    He started by saying this current Pope is probably not going to be recognized as one of the better popes in history, after all, we have had bad popes in the past. I suppose that was his way of being gently sarcastic.
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    Then he gave some hypotheticals such as, What if the pope were to deny the existence of a Catholic God, or what if he removed the restrictions for reception of Communion which have been in place against divorced Catholics openly co-habitating without marriage, or what if he were to praise Protestant heresiarchs while he punishes traditional Catholics... It went on for a couple of minutes with about 10 such examples. Everyone knows what he's talking about but it's a little weird to hear it presented in such a roundabout manner.
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    Then he suddenly ended it all with saying:  Our Lord said wide is the path that leads to destruction and narrow is the gate that leads to life and few there are who find it; as for me, I'll choose the narrow gate and the straight way. In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. The sermon was over.
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    I got the feeling he had been getting upset with sedevacantist arguments and he was being brief just to irritate them.
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