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Author Topic: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism  (Read 3548 times)

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Offline de Lugo

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Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
« on: November 11, 2022, 06:18:20 AM »
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  • Most Reverend Excellency,

    I am writing to you on the occasion of the coming Feast of Christ the King, and I permit myself to share with you a certain fundamental question:

    Is there still any meaning in celebrating and invoking the grace that this liturgical feast so longed for when it was instituted?

    If the King of kings and Lord of lords (cf. 1 Tim 6:15; Apoc. 19:16) were to return today in His glory, would He still recognize His Spouse, the Church?

    By asking these questions, I will seem irreverent and lacking faith in the promise, “the gates of hell shall not prevail” (Mt 16:19), that resonates as a hope to cling to for those few survivors of the wind of mortal apostasy that has invaded the Church. Well, the provocative tone of these questions summarizes the feeling of confusion of the few remaining faithful, faithful in searching for some reference to the Magisterium, a valid Sacrament, and coherence of life among the shepherds. I turn to you as to a “Voice in the desert” that so many times has illuminated so many lost and disheartened souls.

    I wanted to share with you this little story that happened to me:

    Quote
    A few days ago, a lady who brought some donations to the convent said to me: ‘You know, I don’t follow these things very much, but it seems to me that the direction the Church has taken lately is not so good…!’ From the way she spoke, the tone of her voice, I perceived that she was embarrassed for expressing herself in this way to someone whom she believed represented that ‘Church’ that she had just questioned. I could make a great speech to her: my answer was a simple appeal about the need to intensify our personal prayer, leaving the lady in her ignorance and allowing me to ‘identify’ with that ‘church’ that I do not really feel I represent… The sensation was one of great impotence, in the impossibility of being able to give exhaustive and truthful answers. A few minutes earlier I had read the exhortation of Pope Pius XI when, one hundred years ago in his Encyclical Ubi Arcano Dei he had exhorted Catholics about their duty to hasten the return of the social kingship of Christ. A sort of ‘moral duty,’ of a personal and collective commitment.

    Is this commitment still valid? And how should we put it into practice if the “Church” is no longer the “Church”?

    The letter Ubi Arcano Dei was the beginning of the institution of the Feast of the Kingship of Christ, which took place in 1925 precisely in order to avoid the mess that we have experienced in the recent years. In that encyclical, the Kingship of Christ was understood as the remedy to secularism and to all of those errors that – at a distance of one hundred years – have been generously welcomed by many prelates, bishops, cardinals, and even he who presents himself as the representative of Christ and who under this insignia has promoted the ruinous acceleration of the flock “deceptively” entrusted to him.

    Francis is considered to be the pope, albeit an apostate, but is he the pope? Was he ever the pope?

    When Pilate asked Jesus what truth was, despite having Truth Himself right in front of him, the gaze of Christ, the Judge of the world, penetrated the mediocrity of the weak man who stood before him. Pilate trembled for a moment, but the glamor of his personal pride prevailed. Christ the King returns today in the same form and looks the bishops and cardinals in the eye, those who do not recognize the Crown of Thorns that He has worn in their place, assuming the price of their betrayal, their pride, and their unworthy blindness.

    I recall having read in the Diary of Saint Faustina Kowalska – the saint of Mercy – that one day Jesus appeared to her completely scourged, covered in blood and crowned with thorns: he looked her in the eyes and said to her “The bride must resemble Her Bridegroom.” The saint understood what was meant by that call to “nuptiality,” to sharing everything. Probably this is the form of recognition of the Kingship of Christ that our historical moment is demanding personally of every true Catholic.

    Yes, it seems to me that this is the vocation of the “true Church” in our time: of that little flock which, meeting the gaze of Christ the King mistreated and disfigured by blasphemy and perversion, still has the courage to give a response of love, fidelity, and consistency of conscience that is unable to deny Him, because otherwise it would deny Christ the King just as did Pilate, Herod, and all the leaders of the people.

    I do not hide from you that with these lines I wanted to ask for one of your essays, which are full of Christian hope for the little remnant that is bewildered because it is without a Shepherd, without the representative of Christ who ought to guard and defend the Church entrusted to him.

    I have asked you some questions that many are asking with such sorrow in their hearts, and I am certain that the Holy Spirit will give you the answers that will rekindle expectation for the return of the triumph of the Kingdom of Christ in society, in every heart, and over the entire face of the earth!

    Pacificus vocabitur, et thronus eius erit firmissimus in perpetuum!

    – A cloistered nun



    Archbishop Viganò’s reply


    Reverend and dearest Sister,

    I read the letter you sent me with keen interest and edification. Permit me to respond to as well as I can.

    Your first question is as direct as it is disarming: “If the King of Kings and Lord of Lords were to return today in His glory, would he still recognize His Bride, the Church?” Of course He would recognize Her! But not in the sect that eclipses the See of Peter, rather in the many good souls, especially in the priests, men and women religious, and in many simple faithful souls, who, even if they do not have horns of light on their brow as Moses did (Ex 34:29), are still recognizable as living members of the Church of Christ. He would not find Her at Saint Peter’s, where worship has been offered to an unclean idol; nor at Santa Marta, where the artificial poverty and inflated humility of the Tenant are a monument to his immense ego; nor at the Synod on Synodality, where the fiction of democracy serves to complete the dismantling of the divine edifice of the Catholic Church and to impose scandalous ways of life; not in the dioceses and parishes in which the conciliar ideology has replaced the Catholic Faith and cancelled Tradition. The Lord, as Head of the Church, recognizes the pulsating and living members of His Mystical Body and those who are dead and rotting, having been snatched from Christ by heresy, lust, and pride, and who are now subject to Satan. So yes: the King of kings would recognize the pusillus grex, even if he had to look for it gathered around an altar in an attic, a cellar, or the middle of the woods.

    You mention that the promise of the Non prævalebunt may resound “as a hope to cling to,” and that “the provocative tone of these questions summarizes the feeling of confusion of the few remaining faithful, faithful in searching for some reference to the Magisterium, a valid Sacrament, and coherence of life among the shepherds.”

    Our Lord’s promise to St. Peter is provocative, in a certain sense, because it starts from two assumptions: the first is that the gates of hell will not prevail, which tells us nothing about the level of persecution that the Church will have to endure. The second, a logical consequence of the first, is that the Church will be persecuted but not defeated. For both, we are asked to make an act of Faith in the word of the Savior and in His omnipotence, along with an act of humble realism, acknowledging our weakness and the fact that we deserve the worst punishments, both among the “modernists” and also among the “traditionalists.”

    You ask me how to put into practice the appeal of Pius XI for the restoration of the social Kingship of Christ, “if the ‘Church’ is no longer the ‘Church.’” Certainly, the visible church, to which the world gives the name of Catholic Church and of which it considers Bergoglio as Pope, is no longer Church, at least with regard to those cardinals, bishops, and priests who convincedly profess another doctrine and declare themselves to be adherents of the “conciliar church” in antithesis to the “preconciliar church.” But are you and I, and the many priests, religious and faithful, part of that church or of the Church of Christ? To what extent can we superimpose the Bergoglian church and the Catholic Church, accepting that they are superimposable in some aspect? The problem is that the conciliar revolution has torn the bond of identity between the Church of Christ and the Catholic hierarchy.

    Before Vatican II it was unthinkable that a pope could have openly contradicted his predecessors in doctrinal or moral questions, because the hierarchy was very clear about its role and its moral responsibility in administering the power of the Holy Keys and the authority of the Vicar of Christ and the shepherds. The Council, beginning right with the anomalous definition it gave of itself and with the rupture with the past present in the elimination of the canons and anathemas, showed how it is possible, for anyone who does not have moral sense, to hold a sacred role in the Church even though unworthy in the three aspects that you have duly enumerated: “Magisterium, valid Sacrament, and coherence of the life of the Shepherds.” These shepherds, deviants in doctrine, morality, and liturgy, do not feel bound to the fact that they are vicars of Christ, and of thus being able to govern the Church only if their authority is exercised coherently with the purposes that legitimize it. This is why they abuse their own power, usurp an authority whose divine origin they deny, and humiliate the sacred institution which in some way guarantees the authority of those Shepherds.

    This rupture, this violent tear, was consummated on the spiritual level at the moment in which the authority of the prelates was secularized, just like what happened in the civil sphere. Wherever authority ceases to be sacred, sanctioned from above, exercised in the place of He who combines in himself the spiritual authority of Supreme Pontiff and the temporal authority of King and Lord, it is there corrupted into tyranny, sold with corruption, and commits ѕυιcιdє in anarchy. You write: “Christ the King returns today in the same form and looks the bishops and cardinals in the eye, those who do not recognize the Crown of Thorns that He has worn in their place, assuming the price of their betrayal, their pride, and their unworthy blindness.” In those same features, dear sister, we must recognize the Holy Church. And as we were scandalized in seeing her Head humiliated and mocked, scourged and bleeding, wearing the robe, holding a reed, and crowned with thorns, so we are scandalized now in seeing in an analogous way the entire Church Militant laying prostrate, wounded, covered with spit, insulted, and mocked. But if the Head wanted to embrace the Sacrifice by humiliating Himself even unto death, death on a Cross, for what reason would we presume to merit a better end, since we are His members, if we really wish to reign with Him? On which throne is the Lamb seated, if not on the royal throne of the Cross? Regnavit a ligno Deus: this was the triumph of Christ; this will be the triumph of the Church, His Mystical Body. You rightly comment: “The Bride must resemble Her Bridegroom.” And you continue: “Yes, it seems to me that this is the vocation of the ‘true Church’ in our time: of that little flock which, meeting the gaze of Christ the King mistreated and disfigured by blasphemy and perversion, still has the courage to give a response of love, fidelity, and consistency of conscience that is unable to deny Him, because otherwise it would deny Christ the King just as did Pilate, Herod, and all the leaders of the people.”

    Your letter, dearest sister, is for all of us an opportunity to reflect on the mystery of the passio Ecclesiæ that is so near to what is happening in these terrible times. And I conclude by recalling the “provocation” of the Non prævalebunt: just as the Savior knew the shadow of the tomb, so we must know it will happen to the Church, and perhaps it is already happening. But He will not allow his Holy One to know corruption (Ps 16), and He will make Her rise just as He Himself rose from the dead. In this sense, the words “The Bride must resemble the Bridegroom” acquire their full significance, showing us how only by following the Divine Bridegroom up the steep slope to Golgotha will we be able to merit to follow Him in glory to the right hand of the Father.

    I exhort you to draw spiritual profit from these thoughts, as I impart to you and your dear fellow sisters my fullest and fatherly blessing.

    + Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop
    4 November 2022
    S.cti Caroli Borromæi, Pont. Conf.

    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #1 on: November 11, 2022, 06:19:11 AM »
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  • I note that Msgr. Vigano does not respond to the million dollar question, which implies to me that he is uncertain (otherwise he would affirm or deny the question).

    This strange phenomena whereby even conciliar nuns who read Sr. Kowalska now question the legitimacy of at least the Bergoglian papacy is what M. Ladislaus refers to as the "Vigano Effect:" Wherever you find yourself on the conciliar spectrum, he's pulling you out of it and at least into Resistance territory (I did not miss his reference to attic and basement Masses).
    Noblesse oblige.


    Online Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #2 on: November 11, 2022, 06:21:22 AM »
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  • Vatican II is the evil counter church. It’s the real schism.  We are not schismatics.   Everyone who left are not schismatics. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #3 on: November 11, 2022, 07:11:11 AM »
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  • I note that Msgr. Vigano does not respond to the million dollar question, which implies to me that he is uncertain (otherwise he would affirm or deny the question).

    He kind of does.  If you piece it all together, it sounds as if he's leaning toward a form of sedeprivationism / sedeimpoundism.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #4 on: November 11, 2022, 07:11:29 AM »
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  • I note that Msgr. Vigano does not respond to the million dollar question, which implies to me that he is uncertain (otherwise he would affirm or deny the question).

    This strange phenomena whereby even conciliar nuns who read Sr. Kowalska now question the legitimacy of at least the Bergoglian papacy is what M. Ladislaus refers to as the "Vigano Effect:" Wherever you find yourself on the conciliar spectrum, he's pulling you out of it and at least into Resistance territory (I did not miss his reference to attic and basement Masses).
    But did she actually ask this question? Or is it a question included by someone else to form a subtitle [I've seen this before in your Vigano posts]?  Could you please provide the link you got this letter and response from [you never do]?:

    Francis is considered to be the pope, albeit an apostate, but is he the pope? Was he ever the pope?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #5 on: November 11, 2022, 07:14:31 AM »
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  • He states that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the Church, but that the Church has been eclipsed:
    Quote
    Your first question is as direct as it is disarming: “If the King of Kings and Lord of Lords were to return today in His glory, would he still recognize His Bride, the Church?” Of course He would recognize Her! But not in the sect that eclipses the See of Peter, rather in the many good souls, especially in the priests, men and women religious, and in many simple faithful souls, who, even if they do not have horns of light on their brow as Moses did (Ex 34:29), are still recognizable as living members of the Church of Christ.

    This echoes what Archbishop Lefebvre said, that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the Church, which can be found among the Remnant faithful.

    He distinguishes between the "visible" Church and this Church in eclipse or "exile" (as he describes it).

    So a Church that is only so in appearance, but is not substantially the Church (which has been exiled by "the sect").

    He's slouching toward a sedeprivationism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #6 on: November 11, 2022, 07:17:39 AM »
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  • But did she actually ask this question? Or is it a question included by someone else to form a subtitle [I've seen this before in your Vigano posts]?  Could you please provide the link you got this letter and response from [you never do]?:

    Francis is considered to be the pope, albeit an apostate, but is he the pope? Was he ever the pope?


    So, these are posted by Tosatti --
    https://www.marcotosatti.com/2022/11/10/msgr-vigano-exchange-of-letters-with-a-cloistered-nun/

    But you're right that it's not 100% certain that this question was in the original or inserted as a "heading" by Tosatti or some other editor.

    deLugo just bolded it to make it stand out.

    PS:  To deLugo:  man I wish you wouldn't use the term deLugo.  He was one of the earliest Jesuit innovators who undermined EENS dogma and is an ancestor of today's crisis in the Church.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #7 on: November 11, 2022, 07:27:57 AM »
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  • But did she actually ask this question? Or is it a question included by someone else to form a subtitle [I've seen this before in your Vigano posts]?  Could you please provide the link you got this letter and response from [you never do]?:

    Francis is considered to be the pope, albeit an apostate, but is he the pope? Was he ever the pope?

    .

    In the page linked to, it sure looks to me like it's part of the letter. It's just part of the text. I don't see any reason to doubt that that's how it's intended, and I also don't see any reason to think Tosatti tampered with the text.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #8 on: November 11, 2022, 07:30:21 AM »
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  • .

    In the page linked to, it sure looks to me like it's part of the letter. It's just part of the text. I don't see any reason to doubt that that's how it's intended, and I also don't see any reason to think Tosatti tampered with the text.
    I agree.  I just wish de Lugo would provide links to his posts.  I shouldn't have to research them.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #9 on: November 11, 2022, 07:34:54 AM »
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  • He kind of does.  If you piece it all together, it sounds as if he's leaning toward a form of sedeprivationism / sedeimpoundism.
    .

    Oh, R&R people and conservative Novus Ordies talk like this all the time. They make statements that seem to imply they are sympathetic to sedevacantism, but they never really mean it. You see people like Taylor Marshall and Michael Matt always saying things like, "I don't see how Bergoglio can be the pope." Obviously the meaning of that statement is that they are considering sedevacantism, but they never seem to mean it the way they say it. What they actually do mean is unclear; I suspect they don't know themselves. I think it's more like they are just musing out loud without expressing any sort of belief or opinion. Because they certainly are not sedevacantists after saying such things.

    This looks to me like pretty much the same phenomenon.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #10 on: November 11, 2022, 08:32:22 AM »
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  • .

    Oh, R&R people and conservative Novus Ordies talk like this all the time. They make statements that seem to imply they are sympathetic to sedevacantism, but they never really mean it. You see people like Taylor Marshall and Michael Matt always saying things like, "I don't see how Bergoglio can be the pope." Obviously the meaning of that statement is that they are considering sedevacantism, but they never seem to mean it the way they say it. What they actually do mean is unclear; I suspect they don't know themselves. I think it's more like they are just musing out loud without expressing any sort of belief or opinion. Because they certainly are not sedevacantists after saying such things.

    This looks to me like pretty much the same phenomenon.
    And assuming the nun did ask that very pointed question, I have to wonder whether she thinks he answered it.  I think she was probably looking for a yes or a no. When all is said and done, it sounds like a non-answer to me.  At the very least, explain that he can not conclude at this time or for some other reason.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #11 on: November 11, 2022, 08:40:38 AM »
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  • .

    Oh, R&R people and conservative Novus Ordies talk like this all the time. They make statements that seem to imply they are sympathetic to sedevacantism, but they never really mean it. You see people like Taylor Marshall and Michael Matt always saying things like, "I don't see how Bergoglio can be the pope." Obviously the meaning of that statement is that they are considering sedevacantism, but they never seem to mean it the way they say it. What they actually do mean is unclear; I suspect they don't know themselves. I think it's more like they are just musing out loud without expressing any sort of belief or opinion. Because they certainly are not sedevacantists after saying such things.

    This looks to me like pretty much the same phenomenon.

    No, they clearly "mean" their SYMPATHY with SVism.  But they just hesitate to commit (at least openly to it).  Archibishop Lefebvre himself said in 1986 that he and Bishop de Castro Mayer had pondered the question for many year but had "preferred to wait".  What you assert for not "meaning" is SVism, but that's not right because they never said they were SVs.

    They're leaning toward it but resist the urge for various reasons.  This has nothing to do with meaning or not meaning anything.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #12 on: November 11, 2022, 09:36:37 AM »
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  • No, they clearly "mean" their SYMPATHY with SVism.  But they just hesitate to commit (at least openly to it).  Archibishop Lefebvre himself said in 1986 that he and Bishop de Castro Mayer had pondered the question for many year but had "preferred to wait".  What you assert for not "meaning" is SVism, but that's not right because they never said they were SVs.

    They're leaning toward it but resist the urge for various reasons.  This has nothing to do with meaning or not meaning anything.
    It's not real sympathy for SVism. If it were, these same people wouldn't condemn it in the strongest terms possible at other times. 

    It's just cognitive dissonance.

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #13 on: November 11, 2022, 09:55:12 AM »
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  • When Msgr. Vigano says, 

    "Certainly, the visible church, to which the world gives the name of Catholic Church, and of which it considers Bergoglio as Pope, is no longer the Church, at least with regard to those Cardinals, Bishops, and priests who convincedly profess another doctrine and declare themselves to be adherents of the “conciliar church” in antithesis to the 'preconciliar church,'"

    It put me in mind of Msgr. Tissier de Mallerais' thesis (summarized here by the Dominicains de Avrille):

    "This study was first published in French in the tri-monthly review of the Dominicans of Avrillé, Le Sel de la Terre n°85 (summer 2013).

    It reflects Archbishop Lefebvre’s true way of thinking concerning the mystery of a Pope presiding over the destruction of the Church: the Pope remains the Pope, but he is at the head of two churches; the Catholic Church, of which he was elected the head, and another society, the “conciliar church”, which has its dogmas, its liturgy, its new institutions, etc. The conciliar church is not the Catholic Church, but a counterfeit “church”. We must separate ourselves from it if we want to keep the Catholic Faith.

    Ever since the authorities of the Society of Saint Pius X have been getting closer to conciliar Rome in the hopes of obtaining a canonical recognition, their language has changed. A new thesis contrived by a theology professor at Écône named Fr. Gleize, maintains that there is no conciliar church in the sense of an organized society; the current crisis is rather an “illness” affecting the men of the Church, and the Church presently at Rome is the Catholic Church. This is what Bishop Fellay says, for example in his ordination sermon at the seminary of La Reja (Buenos Aires, Argentina) on December 20th, 2014:

    Quote
    Quote The problem of jurisdiction shows the importance of being recognized canonically. […] The official church is the visible Church; it is the Catholic Church, period.

    To affirm that the official church is the Catholic Church, – something which Archbishop Lefebvre never did – leads one to look for an official recognition, because one cannot remain outside of the Catholic Church. With his new manner of speaking, this is exactly what Bishop Fellay is trying to persuade the priests and faithful to do, and that puts Tradition in grave danger.

    This article by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais is therefore of crucial importance if we want to preserve ourselves from the confusion caused by the new language coming from Menzingen.

    It is of interest to note that Bishop Fellay reproached the Dominicans of Avrillé for having published this study of Bishop Tissier de Mallerais. Likewise, Fr. Rostand (at that time district superior of the U.S.) had the Letter to Friends and Benefactors of the Dominicans of Avrillé of September 2013 removed from the press tables of all SSPX chapels, precisely because it contained an article treating this same subject. You will find it here in an appendix.

    https://dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/ 
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Msgr. Vigano to Nun Considering Sedevacantism
    « Reply #14 on: November 11, 2022, 11:03:41 AM »
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  • It reflects Archbishop Lefebvre’s true way of thinking concerning the mystery of a Pope presiding over the destruction of the Church: the Pope remains the Pope, but he is at the head of two churches; the Catholic Church, of which he was elected the head, and another society, the “conciliar church”, which has its dogmas, its liturgy, its new institutions, etc. The conciliar church is not the Catholic Church, but a counterfeit “church”. We must separate ourselves from it if we want to keep the Catholic Faith.

    There's nothing in +Vigano's text along these lines.  You're reading "Frankenchurch" theory into his writings and also falsely stating that this is +Lefebvre's "true way of thinking".  That too was retrospectively imposed on the views of +Lefebvre.