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Author Topic: MOSES EXPLAINS  (Read 6385 times)

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Offline JPaul

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MOSES EXPLAINS
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2014, 09:28:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: TheKnightVigilant
    Those YDNA results are confirmed not only in studies published in peer-reviewed journals, but by individually submitted and verified results on websites like familytreedna.

    Modern Jєωs are semitic.


    They are Jєωs, and all that this name represents in body, in spirit , and in action.
    Being semitic to a greater or lesser degree means little to anyone but them.


    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    « Reply #16 on: September 02, 2014, 10:31:08 AM »
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  • That is true. My point is that modern Jєωs are in fact the descendants of Biblical Israelites, not converted Khazars. The Khazar propaganda undermines the historical and biblical narrative of the Jєωs, the Chosen people, rejecting their saviour and their destiny. It practically exonerates Jєωs from any responsibility for the Crucifixion. That's probably why the theory is most enthusiastically promoted by Jєωs themselves.


    Offline hollingsworth

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    « Reply #17 on: September 02, 2014, 12:59:37 PM »
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  • The KV publishes extremely irresponsible remarks, IMO.  He talks about "dozens" of studies confirming his contention that modern Jєωs are descendants of the ancient Biblical Hebrews.  Yet you mention only one of those alleged studies.  Now you come up with this little chestnut:
    Quote
    It (i.e. claiming that modern Jєωs are Khazars)  practically exonerates Jєωs from any responsibility for the Crucifixion. That's probably why the theory is most enthusiastically promoted by Jєωs themselves.


    I won't ask for "dozens" of proofs on this score, simply, oh, five.  Five is a reasonable number, I feel.  Show me five Jєω-generated articles, or videos, or other media or historical sources, which clearly prove that modern Jєωs "enthusiatically" promote the Khazarian mythos in order to be exonerate themselves from any blame for the Crucifixion.  If you can't do this, then I, for one, am forced to go on believing that you are a horse's behind.

    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #18 on: September 02, 2014, 02:21:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: TheKnightVigilant
    That is true. My point is that modern Jєωs are in fact the descendants of Biblical Israelites, not converted Khazars. The Khazar propaganda undermines the historical and biblical narrative of the Jєωs, the Chosen people, rejecting their saviour and their destiny. It practically exonerates Jєωs from any responsibility for the Crucifixion. That's probably why the theory is most enthusiastically promoted by Jєωs themselves.


    The Khazar element of European and Russian Jєωry is an indisputable fact. Their Turkic DNA is found in a large percentage of those populations as well as their distinct physical characteristics, and the history of their conversion is an established fact.

    The splitting between the original Jєωιѕн stock and the mongrelized race that is seen today, began back during the Babylonian captivity.
    Having some genetic tie to the ancient Jєωs does not make a modern Jєω the true inheritor of that race.


    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    « Reply #19 on: September 02, 2014, 04:11:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    The KV publishes extremely irresponsible remarks, IMO.  He talks about "dozens" of studies confirming his contention that modern Jєωs are descendants of the ancient Biblical Hebrews.  Yet you mention only one of those alleged studies.  Now you come up with this little chestnut:
    Quote
    It (i.e. claiming that modern Jєωs are Khazars)  practically exonerates Jєωs from any responsibility for the Crucifixion. That's probably why the theory is most enthusiastically promoted by Jєωs themselves.


    I won't ask for "dozens" of proofs on this score, simply, oh, five.  Five is a reasonable number, I feel.  Show me five Jєω-generated articles, or videos, or other media or historical sources, which clearly prove that modern Jєωs "enthusiatically" promote the Khazarian mythos in order to be exonerate themselves from any blame for the Crucifixion.  If you can't do this, then I, for one, am forced to go on believing that you are a horse's behind.


    I've posted more than one study. The familytreedna link I provided shows the YDNA results of almost two thousand Jєωs from countries as diverse as England to Poland to Iraq. Their YDNA lineages are mainly semitic. You can't argue with DNA.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jєωιѕнdnaproject/default.aspx?section=yresults

    And heck, here are a few more studies which arrive at the same conclusion:

    www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769.full?sid=87fe5eab-25be-450d-8e72-ac3483580c4c

    “Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jєωιѕн populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level.

    “Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into αѕнкenαzι and Roman Jєωιѕн communities . . .  Jєωιѕн and Middle Eastern non-Jєωιѕн populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jєωιѕн communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jєωιѕн communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jєωιѕн communities during and after the Diaspora.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/

    αѕнкenαzι Jєωs “share more common paternal lineages with other Jєωιѕн and Middle Eastern groups than with non-Jєωιѕн populations in areas where Jєωs lived in Eastern Europe, Germany and the French Rhine Valley. This is consistent with Jєωιѕн traditions in placing most Jєωιѕн paternal origins in the region of the Middle East.”

    http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2687795/

    “individuals with full Jєωιѕн ancestry formed a clearly distinct cluster from those individuals with no Jєωιѕн ancestry.”

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/abs/nature09103.html

    “Most Jєωιѕн samples form a remarkably tight subcluster,” that “traces the origins of most Jєωιѕн Diaspora communities to the Levant.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797531/

    “Jєωιѕн populations show a high level of genetic similarity to each other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population structure. These results support the view that the Jєωιѕн populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they have undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jєωιѕн populations of European descent.”

    www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929710002466

    The study "demonstrated distinctive Jєωιѕн population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture.”

    “the genetic proximity . . . is incompatible with theories that αѕнкenαzι Jєωs are for the most part the direct lineal descendants of converted Khazars or Slavs.

    www.pnas.org/content/107/37/16222.full

    The “αѕнкenαzι Jєωιѕн (AJ) population . . .  has a common Middle Eastern origin with other Jєωιѕн Diaspora populations”

    www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/07/31/1204840109.abstract?sid=8b13ff9e-e9fa-4d99-aedf-1699b727980a

    “These populations showed a high degree of endogamy and were part of a larger αѕнкenαzι and Sephardic Jєωιѕн group.”

    http://www.jpost.com/Enviro-Tech/Jєωs-A-religious-group-people-or-race

    "The author uses his observations to refute theories that αѕнкenαzι Jєωs are descendants of converted Khazars, a semi-nomadic people living in medieval Eurasia who welcomed Jєωs to their midst. He also reports that in addition to southern Europeans, the closest genetic neighbors to most Jєωιѕн groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Beduin and Druse."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/science/10Jєωs.html?_r=2&

    “Jєωιѕн communities from Europe, the Middle East and the Caucasus all have substantial genetic ancestry that traces back to the Levant"

    “αѕнкenαzιc and Sephardic Jєωs have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East, the two surveys find. The two communities seem very similar to each other genetically, which is unexpected because they have been separated for so long.”

    Want more?  :laugh1:

    What exactly are you asking for? Five articles that promote the Khazar theory specifically to exonerate Jєωs from responsibility for the crucifixion, or five examples of Jєωs who promote the Khazar theory? If the latter, I can think of at least three: Arthur Koestler, Eran Elhaik, Shlomo Sand,

    I understand, though, that you're only trying to deflect attention away from the DNA studies, which prove your position to be a lot of horsecrap.


    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    « Reply #20 on: September 02, 2014, 04:17:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: TheKnightVigilant
    That is true. My point is that modern Jєωs are in fact the descendants of Biblical Israelites, not converted Khazars. The Khazar propaganda undermines the historical and biblical narrative of the Jєωs, the Chosen people, rejecting their saviour and their destiny. It practically exonerates Jєωs from any responsibility for the Crucifixion. That's probably why the theory is most enthusiastically promoted by Jєωs themselves.


    The Khazar element of European and Russian Jєωry is an indisputable fact. Their Turkic DNA is found in a large percentage of those populations as well as their distinct physical characteristics, and the history of their conversion is an established fact.

    The splitting between the original Jєωιѕн stock and the mongrelized race that is seen today, began back during the Babylonian captivity.
    Having some genetic tie to the ancient Jєωs does not make a modern Jєω the true inheritor of that race.



    Jєωιѕн YDNA lineages are roughly 70% middle eastern and 20% European. The standard Turkic lineage is C-M217 which is completely absent among Jєωs. Q is found at low frequencies among Jєωs and among certain Turkic peoples (and native Americans), but that's about it.

    Nothing Turkic here. Another myth debunked.


    Offline Columba

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    « Reply #21 on: September 02, 2014, 04:50:48 PM »
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  • 'Jєωs a Race' Genetic Theory Comes Under Fierce Attack by DNA Expert
    Israeli Scientist Challenges Hypothesis of Middle East Origins
    Science Feud: Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Elhaik says his research debunks the long-held theory that Jєωs are a single race.

    May 07, 2013

    Scientists usually don’t call each other “liars” and “frauds.”

    But that’s how Johns Hopkins University post-doctoral researcher Eran Elhaik describes a group of widely respected geneticists, including Harry Ostrer
    , professor of pathology and genetics at Yeshiva University’s Albert Einstein College of Medicine and author of the 2012 book “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jєωιѕн People.”

    For years now, the findings of Ostrer and several other scientists have stood virtually unchallenged on the genetics of Jєωs and the story they tell of the common Middle East origins shared by many Jєωιѕн populations worldwide. Jєωs — and αѕнкenαzιm in particular — are indeed one people, Ostrer’s research finds.

    It’s a theory that more or less affirms the understanding that many Jєωs themselves hold of who they are in the world: a people who, though scattered, share an ethnic-racial bond rooted in their common ancestral descent from the indigenous Jєωs of ancient Judea or Palestine, as the Romans called it after they conquered the Jєωιѕн homeland.

    But now, Elhaik, an Israeli molecular geneticist, has published research that he says debunks this claim. [...]

    http://forward.com/articles/175912/Jєωs-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta

    Offline Himagain

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    « Reply #22 on: September 02, 2014, 05:05:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Columba
    'Jєωs a Race' Genetic Theory Comes Under Fierce Attack by DNA Expert
    Israeli Scientist Challenges Hypothesis of Middle East Origins
    Science Feud: Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Elhaik says his research debunks the long-held theory that Jєωs are a single race.

    May 07, 2013

    Scientists usually don’t call each other “liars” and “frauds.” [...]

    http://forward.com/articles/175912/Jєωs-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta


    From the article you quote:  "Elhaik, who doesn’t believe that Moses, Aaron or the 12 Tribes of Israel ever existed...".  Sounds like an interesting guy.  


    Offline Columba

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    « Reply #23 on: September 02, 2014, 07:22:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Himagain
    Quote from: Columba
    'Jєωs a Race' Genetic Theory Comes Under Fierce Attack by DNA Expert
    Israeli Scientist Challenges Hypothesis of Middle East Origins
    Science Feud: Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Elhaik says his research debunks the long-held theory that Jєωs are a single race.

    May 07, 2013

    Scientists usually don’t call each other “liars” and “frauds.” [...]

    http://forward.com/articles/175912/Jєωs-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta


    From the article you quote:  "Elhaik, who doesn’t believe that Moses, Aaron or the 12 Tribes of Israel ever existed...".  Sounds like an interesting guy.  

    Unbelieving Jєωs are common, especially in the field of science.

    Any comments regarding his peer-reviewed argument in the journal of Genome Biology and Evolution? One reason he charges anti-Khazar theorists with fraud was their attempts to hide data.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    « Reply #24 on: September 02, 2014, 07:42:15 PM »
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  • kv:
    Quote
    What exactly are you asking for?
     
      You, sirrah, know exactly what I'm asking for. :rolleyes:  I am asking you to produce at least five sources wherein your idea about modern Jєωs embracing and promoting the Khazarian theory in order to escape blame for the Crucifixion of Christ is presented.  Your last post was a smokescreen.  You don't touch your own self-introduced notion .  You don't treat of it in any manner at all.  You simply let google cough up a few DNA studies for you.  I repeat:  You know exactly what I'm asking for.  I have no interest in reading and pouring over your links, because I am convinced that you have not read or studied them in any depth either.  

    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    « Reply #25 on: September 02, 2014, 08:15:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Columba
    'Jєωs a Race' Genetic Theory Comes Under Fierce Attack by DNA Expert
    Israeli Scientist Challenges Hypothesis of Middle East Origins
    Science Feud: Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Elhaik says his research debunks the long-held theory that Jєωs are a single race.

    May 07, 2013

    Scientists usually don’t call each other “liars” and “frauds.”

    But that’s how Johns Hopkins University post-doctoral researcher Eran Elhaik describes a group of widely respected geneticists, including Harry Ostrer
    , professor of pathology and genetics at Yeshiva University’s Albert Einstein College of Medicine and author of the 2012 book “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jєωιѕн People.”

    For years now, the findings of Ostrer and several other scientists have stood virtually unchallenged on the genetics of Jєωs and the story they tell of the common Middle East origins shared by many Jєωιѕн populations worldwide. Jєωs — and αѕнкenαzιm in particular — are indeed one people, Ostrer’s research finds.

    It’s a theory that more or less affirms the understanding that many Jєωs themselves hold of who they are in the world: a people who, though scattered, share an ethnic-racial bond rooted in their common ancestral descent from the indigenous Jєωs of ancient Judea or Palestine, as the Romans called it after they conquered the Jєωιѕн homeland.

    But now, Elhaik, an Israeli molecular geneticist, has published research that he says debunks this claim. [...]

    http://forward.com/articles/175912/Jєωs-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta


    He's been utterly debunked.

    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints

    “Here, through integration of genotypes on newly collected samples with data from several of our past studies, we have assembled the largest data set available to date for assessment of αѕнкenαzι Jєωιѕн genetic origins.”

    “Employing a variety of standard techniques for the analysis of population genetic structure, we find that αѕнкenαzι Jєωs share the greatest genetic ancestry with other Jєωιѕн populations, and among non-Jєωιѕн populations, with groups from Europe and the Middle East.

    No particular similarity of αѕнкenαzι Jєωs with populations from the Caucasus is evident, particularly with the populations that most closely represent the Khazar region. Thus, analysis of αѕнкenαzι Jєωs together with a large sample from the region of the Khazar Khaganate corroborates the earlier results that αѕнкenαzι Jєωs derive their ancestry primarily from populations of the Middle East and Europe, that they possess considerable shared ancestry with other Jєωιѕн populations, and that there is no indication of a significant genetic contribution either from within or from north of the Caucasus region.

    Ouch.  :laugh1:


    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    « Reply #26 on: September 02, 2014, 08:26:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    kv:
    Quote
    What exactly are you asking for?
     
      You, sirrah, know exactly what I'm asking for. :rolleyes:  I am asking you to produce at least five sources wherein your idea about modern Jєωs embracing and promoting the Khazarian theory in order to escape blame for the Crucifixion of Christ is presented.  Your last post was a smokescreen.  You don't touch your own self-introduced notion .  You don't treat of it in any manner at all.  You simply let google cough up a few DNA studies for you.  I repeat:  You know exactly what I'm asking for.  I have no interest in reading and pouring over your links, because I am convinced that you have not read or studied them in any depth either.  


    The thing is buddy, I never pretended that my statement about the possible motivation behind Jєωιѕн support of the Khazar theory was anything other than my opinion.. Where did I ever indicate it was anything other than my opinion? I do believe that the Jєωs benefit from denying that they are a defined racial group. What I said was that the data confirming a semitic origin for modern Jєωs was confirmed in multiple independent studies. I provided you with the sources, which you have refused to look at.

    It's quite irrelevant, though. The topic of discussion is not why the Jєωs promote Khazar propaganda, but whether the Jєωs are, in fact, the descendants of Biblical Israelites or the descendants of Turkic converts. You're trying to shift attention away from the studies I posted because they crush your little theory and you can't handle it.

    You "have no interest in reading or pouring over" the peer-reviewed studies which demolish the Khazar theory that you actively promote...   :laugh1:

    Offline Columba

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    « Reply #27 on: September 02, 2014, 09:25:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: TheKnightVigilant
    Quote from: Columba
    'Jєωs a Race' Genetic Theory Comes Under Fierce Attack by DNA Expert
    Israeli Scientist Challenges Hypothesis of Middle East Origins
    Science Feud: Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Elhaik says his research debunks the long-held theory that Jєωs are a single race.

    May 07, 2013

    Scientists usually don’t call each other “liars” and “frauds.”

    But that’s how Johns Hopkins University post-doctoral researcher Eran Elhaik describes a group of widely respected geneticists, including Harry Ostrer
    , professor of pathology and genetics at Yeshiva University’s Albert Einstein College of Medicine and author of the 2012 book “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jєωιѕн People.”

    For years now, the findings of Ostrer and several other scientists have stood virtually unchallenged on the genetics of Jєωs and the story they tell of the common Middle East origins shared by many Jєωιѕн populations worldwide. Jєωs — and αѕнкenαzιm in particular — are indeed one people, Ostrer’s research finds.

    It’s a theory that more or less affirms the understanding that many Jєωs themselves hold of who they are in the world: a people who, though scattered, share an ethnic-racial bond rooted in their common ancestral descent from the indigenous Jєωs of ancient Judea or Palestine, as the Romans called it after they conquered the Jєωιѕн homeland.

    But now, Elhaik, an Israeli molecular geneticist, has published research that he says debunks this claim. [...]

    http://forward.com/articles/175912/Jєωs-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta


    He's been utterly debunked.

    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints

    “Here, through integration of genotypes on newly collected samples with data from several of our past studies, we have assembled the largest data set available to date for assessment of αѕнкenαzι Jєωιѕн genetic origins.”

    “Employing a variety of standard techniques for the analysis of population genetic structure, we find that αѕнкenαzι Jєωs share the greatest genetic ancestry with other Jєωιѕн populations, and among non-Jєωιѕн populations, with groups from Europe and the Middle East.

    No particular similarity of αѕнкenαzι Jєωs with populations from the Caucasus is evident, particularly with the populations that most closely represent the Khazar region. Thus, analysis of αѕнкenαzι Jєωs together with a large sample from the region of the Khazar Khaganate corroborates the earlier results that αѕнкenαzι Jєωs derive their ancestry primarily from populations of the Middle East and Europe, that they possess considerable shared ancestry with other Jєωιѕн populations, and that there is no indication of a significant genetic contribution either from within or from north of the Caucasus region.

    Ouch.  :laugh1:

    I would not start laughing just yet. This paper only came out yesterday and its protestations against considering genetic data from the south Caucasus region seem weak to me. Why presume the Khazars did not intermix with south Caucasus populations? It will be interesting to see how Elhaik responds.

    Hopefully, the anti-Khazar theorists will not try hiding their data again this time.

    Offline JPaul

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    « Reply #28 on: September 02, 2014, 09:41:31 PM »
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  • Quote
    No particular similarity of αѕнкenαzι Jєωs with populations from the Caucasus is evident


     :facepalm:

    Offline hollingsworth

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    « Reply #29 on: September 02, 2014, 10:01:00 PM »
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  • kv:
    Quote
    The Khazar propaganda undermines the historical and biblical narrative of the Jєωs, the Chosen people, rejecting their saviour and their destiny. It practically exonerates Jєωs from any responsibility for the Crucifixion. That's probably why the theory is most enthusiastically promoted by Jєωs themselves.


    You're a slippery individual, kv. you're telling us that it is only your opinion concerning Jєωιѕн motives for promoting the Khazarian theory.  But you're not expressing opinion about the alleged promotion of that theory by the Jєωs.  You affrim that it "is most enthusiastically promoted by Jєωs themselves."  I have asked you to provide docuмentary proof of that.  You have not.  You have not provided one article, one video, one comment or remark from a Jєωιѕн source, or one bit of historical data, which proves beyond any reasonable doubt that they "enthusiastically" promote the theory.  As for the continued DNA  discussion, I don't think I want to grab that 'tar baby.'  I'll stick with the conclusions of truly scholarly Jєωs like Koestler and Sand.  Modern Jєωs, particularly Israeli Jєωs, are by and large an "invented" race of people.  They constitute a "13th Tribe," and have no ancestoral link to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph.  BTW, kv, who are those who say they are Jєωs, but are not? (Apoc. 2:9, 3:9)  Any ideas?  Please don't make me sorry I asked.