Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal  (Read 8781 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 31200
  • Reputation: +27117/-494
  • Gender: Male
More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
« on: May 07, 2016, 03:58:12 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • As posted by "Aleah" in another thread:

    Quote
    Have you noticed that the list of the new priests for June all have a diocese referenced which differs from last year's post?

    This year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/calendar/ordinations-diaconate-and-priesthood-11261

    Last year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/news/who-are-new-priests-stas-8648


    It honestly looks like these young men all came from their local dioceses, on behalf of their local bishops, to be trained by the SSPX and then return to their dioceses to work as priests.

    Doesn't it?
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31200
    • Reputation: +27117/-494
    • Gender: Male
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #1 on: May 07, 2016, 03:58:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I also noticed they updated or changed the "Lord Grant us Priests" prayer. They added a new line at the end, "O Lord, grant us many holy Catholic families".

    It's good for everyone to pray for priests and vocations -- that is supernatural. It is above and a bit against nature. But marrying is the way of all flesh; the way of nature. We don't need to pray for couples to pair off into marriages. At least not on the same level with praying for priests.

    Let's put it this way: if we don't encourage vocations, or pray for more priests, all the couples in your parish WILL get married. Like I said, it's the way of all flesh. The default path for human beings. Everyone who finds a suitable spouse naturally gets married.

    Praying for vocations on a weekly (or daily) basis is one way to instill in our children that we would love to have our prayers answered by having a vocation from among our own children. Besides beseeching God for the blessing of more vocations, it also teaches our children the implicit truth that vocations are a blessing from God. That's why I like this prayer, and that's why the prayer exists.

    Placing marriage on par with priesthood/religious vocations is just WRONG. St. Paul clearly said that the religious life (which includes the Priesthood) is superior to the married life. There is an objective superiority of virginity over marriage. So it seems like we have here a subtle Novus Ordo error creeping in to the SSPX.

    The key to this issue is that STRICTLY SPEAKING marriage is not a vocation. It's the absence of a vocation. Again, it's going the human route, the way of all flesh. It's noble when elevated to a sacrament, but it's not a vocation strictly speaking.

    It's only a vocation in the broad sense, as in "one's calling".  Some are called to be single, some married, and some to the religious life or priesthood. My "vocation" or "calling" in this sense is to the field of computer programming. But I wouldn't place my "vocation" of computer programmer next to Fr. Zendejas' vocation to be a priest. The two words "vocation" are the same, and have the same letters and pronunciation, but they have a different meaning. One is being used in the strict sense, and the other in only a broad sense.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Online Aleah

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 789
    • Reputation: +371/-134
    • Gender: Female
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #2 on: May 07, 2016, 04:03:52 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    As posted by "Aleah" in another thread:

    Quote
    Have you noticed that the list of the new priests for June all have a diocese referenced which differs from last year's post?

    This year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/calendar/ordinations-diaconate-and-priesthood-11261

    Last year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/news/who-are-new-priests-stas-8648


    It honestly looks like these young men all came from their local dioceses, on behalf of their local bishops, to be trained by the SSPX and then return to their dioceses to work as priests.

    Doesn't it?


    It makes me think that the SSPX already considers itself as part of the local dioceses (maybe secretly) and this is "business as usual".

    Grooming everyone in a very subtle way....
    I am He who is- you are she who is not.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1424
    • Reputation: +1360/-142
    • Gender: Female
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #3 on: May 07, 2016, 04:42:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    As posted by "Aleah" in another thread:

    Quote
    Have you noticed that the list of the new priests for June all have a diocese referenced which differs from last year's post?

    This year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/calendar/ordinations-diaconate-and-priesthood-11261

    Last year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/news/who-are-new-priests-stas-8648


    It honestly looks like these young men all came from their local dioceses, on behalf of their local bishops, to be trained by the SSPX and then return to their dioceses to work as priests.

    Doesn't it?


    It sure does. "Many bishops had pledged to send seminarians to the SSPX" once they were "reintegrated". So, when did that happen?
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline wallflower

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +1983/-96
    • Gender: Female
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #4 on: May 07, 2016, 06:05:35 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    I also noticed they updated or changed the "Lord Grant us Priests" prayer. They added a new line at the end, "O Lord, grant us many holy Catholic families".

    It's good for everyone to pray for priests and vocations -- that is supernatural. It is above and a bit against nature. But marrying is the way of all flesh; the way of nature. We don't need to pray for couples to pair off into marriages. At least not on the same level with praying for priests.

    Let's put it this way: if we don't encourage vocations, or pray for more priests, all the couples in your parish WILL get married. Like I said, it's the way of all flesh. The default path for human beings. Everyone who finds a suitable spouse naturally gets married.

    Praying for vocations on a weekly (or daily) basis is one way to instill in our children that we would love to have our prayers answered by having a vocation from among our own children. Besides beseeching God for the blessing of more vocations, it also teaches our children the implicit truth that vocations are a blessing from God. That's why I like this prayer, and that's why the prayer exists.

    Placing marriage on par with priesthood/religious vocations is just WRONG. St. Paul clearly said that the religious life (which includes the Priesthood) is superior to the married life. There is an objective superiority of virginity over marriage. So it seems like we have here a subtle Novus Ordo error creeping in to the SSPX.

    The key to this issue is that STRICTLY SPEAKING marriage is not a vocation. It's the absence of a vocation. Again, it's going the human route, the way of all flesh. It's noble when elevated to a sacrament, but it's not a vocation strictly speaking.

    It's only a vocation in the broad sense, as in "one's calling".  Some are called to be single, some married, and some to the religious life or priesthood. My "vocation" or "calling" in this sense is to the field of computer programming. But I wouldn't place my "vocation" of computer programmer next to Fr. Zendejas' vocation to be a priest. The two words "vocation" are the same, and have the same letters and pronunciation, but they have a different meaning. One is being used in the strict sense, and the other in only a broad sense.


    I agree with you that vocations are objectively superior to marriage but I took this addition completely differently than you did. I heard it not long ago and loved it immediately and wondered why it had taken so long for us to think of regularly praying for holy Catholic families. They aren't praying simply for people to pair off into marriage. They are praying for many holy Catholic families. The holy part is the focus. At least that's how I took it. People pair off naturally, yes. People do not pair off into holy families naturally.

    Though I cannot speak for whoever started this, I do not think it was added to the prayer to pretend marriage is on par with religious life. I think it's more because the prayer is so popular and because a natural (or supernatural) result of many holy Catholic families IS more vocations. Though marriage and religious vocations are not equal they sure are indispensable to each other. Sure God can (and sometimes does) pluck a young man or woman out of a bad or non-Catholic family, convert them and lead them to a religious vocation. But that isn't His usual way. The more common way of fostering vocations is within holy Catholic families. That is why vocations are so low now; even among our own trads we aren't getting the numbers we should be. In that way, praying for many holy Catholic families is another way of praying for more vocations.

    And personally for those who are already married, or know they want to be, it helps them realize they too need to be striving for sanctity. While there may be a book about sanctity in married life here and there, the general attitude for many is that married people can take it a little easier. We aren't "called" so if we aren't perfect it's ok. If we like our worldly little extras it's ok. If we spend less time in prayer it's ok. And of course strictly speaking those things are ok, but because we're given an inch we take a mile and tend to let more things slide than we ought to. And why are we settling for ok? For how busy we are, how many of us really don't have time for extra prayer? Or do we just think we don't have to make time for extra prayer since we aren't religious after all.

    I don't know if I am getting my point across well. But that line will hopefully make us realize that though objectively religious life and marriage are not on the same par, the subjective obligation to strive for sanctity is the same. Who knows who it might inspire to wake up and realize we don't just need holy priests, but holy families as well? That means them, personally. I don't know. I thought it was the perfect addition on both counts, to make the point that many holy religious vocations don't spring up out of nowhere and also that the married are called to holiness too.

    A separate prayer could have been made up but this one is already so frequently prayed that it gets the prayer for many holy Catholic families out there quickly and painlessly. Our society needs it desperately.
     



    Offline RogerThat

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 70
    • Reputation: +64/-114
    • Gender: Male
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #5 on: May 07, 2016, 06:49:15 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    I also noticed they updated or changed the "Lord Grant us Priests" prayer. They added a new line at the end, "O Lord, grant us many holy Catholic families".

    It's good for everyone to pray for priests and vocations -- that is supernatural. It is above and a bit against nature. But marrying is the way of all flesh; the way of nature. We don't need to pray for couples to pair off into marriages. At least not on the same level with praying for priests.

    Let's put it this way: if we don't encourage vocations, or pray for more priests, all the couples in your parish WILL get married. Like I said, it's the way of all flesh. The default path for human beings. Everyone who finds a suitable spouse naturally gets married.

    Praying for vocations on a weekly (or daily) basis is one way to instill in our children that we would love to have our prayers answered by having a vocation from among our own children. Besides beseeching God for the blessing of more vocations, it also teaches our children the implicit truth that vocations are a blessing from God. That's why I like this prayer, and that's why the prayer exists.

    Placing marriage on par with priesthood/religious vocations is just WRONG. St. Paul clearly said that the religious life (which includes the Priesthood) is superior to the married life. There is an objective superiority of virginity over marriage. So it seems like we have here a subtle Novus Ordo error creeping in to the SSPX.

    The key to this issue is that STRICTLY SPEAKING marriage is not a vocation. It's the absence of a vocation. Again, it's going the human route, the way of all flesh. It's noble when elevated to a sacrament, but it's not a vocation strictly speaking.

    It's only a vocation in the broad sense, as in "one's calling".  Some are called to be single, some married, and some to the religious life or priesthood. My "vocation" or "calling" in this sense is to the field of computer programming. But I wouldn't place my "vocation" of computer programmer next to Fr. Zendejas' vocation to be a priest. The two words "vocation" are the same, and have the same letters and pronunciation, but they have a different meaning. One is being used in the strict sense, and the other in only a broad sense.




    I don't like to disagree with anything you say but in this particular instance, I have to slightly disagree. Here are my thoughts:

    Firstly, marriage is under attack. Whether it is civilly, through the government mandates, or by Rome, through the relaxation of annulment regulations. The family is, la petite église, the small church. Imagine what the world would look like if every Catholic family had at its model the Martin family, parents of Saint Thérèse de Lisieux. Sister Lucia of Fatima is quoted as saying that, "The final confrontation between the Lord and satan will be over marriage and the family." We must constantly pray for families, both formally/publically as a church and privately, in our own devotions. I believe the addition of the extra line behind the other petitions is a formal way for us, as a Church, to constantly pray for this fundamentally important cause. It takes away nothing from the other petitions.

    Secondly, I disagree with the notion that  the extra petition discourages our children to discern the religious life. Just as you said, the petition will teach our children that holy families are a gift and blessing from God. Note that the petition uses the adjectives "many," "holy," and "Catholic." We ask Our Blessed Lord for not just "families" or "children" or "households," we ask for "CATHOLIC," "HOLY" families, families that will produce vocations precisely because they will the small church that will foster the vocations. I dare to say that without "Holy" and "Catholic" families, we will not have any vocations.

    Thirdly, and this point is up for discussion, I disagree with the notion that marriage is not a vocation. Yes, the apostle Paul as well many Popes, from Pius XII to John Paul II, have always taught the superiority of religious life. John Paul II stated, "The profession of virginity or celibacy enables consecrated persons to share more directly in the mystery of this marriage, the nuptual union of Christ and His Church." In a similar way, a vocation to marriage is a call to holiness, a rejection of the culture of death and the present forces that wish to destroy the Holy Bond. Marriage is not the absence of a vocation, it IS a vocation in itself. A remark that marriage is "dirty" or should be avoided is what the gnostics believed. Our work is also a vocation for God created us ut operaretur et custodiret illum, to work, "as man is born to labour and the bird to fly"[Job5:7]. Our work is also a calling of God, another method of sanctification for it is in our work, your work as a computer programmer or my work as a student, with the right intentions, becomes where we practice our faith, our sacrifice.

    I don't think adding "Lord, grant us many holy Catholic families" is an error or will somehow lead our children to all become married. If they are called to the religious life, God will give them the graces needed to make it happen if it is His Will. We must constantly pray for more Catholic Holy families everywhere.










    Offline Pilar

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 215
    • Reputation: +264/-239
    • Gender: Male
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #6 on: May 07, 2016, 08:39:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    As posted by "Aleah" in another thread:

    Quote
    Have you noticed that the list of the new priests for June all have a diocese referenced which differs from last year's post?

    This year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/calendar/ordinations-diaconate-and-priesthood-11261

    Last year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/news/who-are-new-priests-stas-8648


    It honestly looks like these young men all came from their local dioceses, on behalf of their local bishops, to be trained by the SSPX and then return to their dioceses to work as priests.

    Doesn't it?


    But you know that isn't the case, right?

    Offline Pilar

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 215
    • Reputation: +264/-239
    • Gender: Male
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #7 on: May 07, 2016, 10:57:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Pilar
    Quote from: Matthew
    As posted by "Aleah" in another thread:

    Quote
    Have you noticed that the list of the new priests for June all have a diocese referenced which differs from last year's post?

    This year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/calendar/ordinations-diaconate-and-priesthood-11261

    Last year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/news/who-are-new-priests-stas-8648


    It honestly looks like these young men all came from their local dioceses, on behalf of their local bishops, to be trained by the SSPX and then return to their dioceses to work as priests.

    Doesn't it?


    But you know that isn't the case, right?


    My family, we know lots of these young men. Are you thinking that there may be one or two already from dioceses? It's strange and unsettling that the dioceses are listed, I agree.


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31200
    • Reputation: +27117/-494
    • Gender: Male
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #8 on: May 08, 2016, 12:26:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Pilar
    Quote from: Matthew
    As posted by "Aleah" in another thread:

    Quote
    Have you noticed that the list of the new priests for June all have a diocese referenced which differs from last year's post?

    This year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/calendar/ordinations-diaconate-and-priesthood-11261

    Last year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/news/who-are-new-priests-stas-8648


    It honestly looks like these young men all came from their local dioceses, on behalf of their local bishops, to be trained by the SSPX and then return to their dioceses to work as priests.

    Doesn't it?


    But you know that isn't the case, right?


    I sure thought that wasn't the case.

    So why does the SSPX go out of its way to pretend otherwise?
    Why are they so diocese-oriented all the sudden, as if they're part of the Conciliar structure already?
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31200
    • Reputation: +27117/-494
    • Gender: Male
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #9 on: May 08, 2016, 12:29:10 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • You made some good points, and maybe you're right.

    Maybe I'm just a bit cynical, considering everything the SSPX has done so far to betray Tradition.

    I agree that we married people need to strive for sanctity, and strive to make our families holy, which is the source of vocations. Just because we are married, that doesn't mean we need to wallow in the natural level.

    This does take God's grace, and does need to be prayed for. Wallflower made some good points.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1242
    • Reputation: +866/-173
    • Gender: Female
    • The Thread Killer
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #10 on: May 08, 2016, 07:27:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've heard this prayer intention recently so I wondered where it came from.  SSPX talking points to laity?  Not sure.

    However, should the relationship between holy families and religious vocations be pointed out?  While I know vocations do come from bad families (the saints prove that) holy Catholic parents are more likely to produce religious vocations, namely priests which are so desperately needed.

    Matthew like you I am hypervigilant to any changes whatsoever.  While I am attending a Society chapel for now I know my time there is short.  I expect to be leaving by summer's end because I anticipate "the deal" to manifest.  



    Offline Wessex

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1311
    • Reputation: +1953/-361
    • Gender: Male
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #11 on: May 08, 2016, 08:12:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • The membership of the SSPX recognises the conciliar church and her territorial divisions. Therefore, it is consistent for members to belong willingly or unwillingly to their dioceses. At least the Society is being honest about this and no longer wishes to belong to what Bp. Fellay calls a church of the imagination. Now SSPX laymen have to decide whether to embrace their real bishop or like myself apply a red hot poker to a place he would enjoy. The process of integration should be fun.

    Offline wallflower

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +1983/-96
    • Gender: Female
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #12 on: May 08, 2016, 10:39:54 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew


    Maybe I'm just a bit cynical, considering everything the SSPX has done so far to betray Tradition.



    That's a problem they've created. Once they've lost trust it's hard to get it back again, even when/if their actions aren't geared to reintegration. How are we supposed to know which words and actions are true and which aren't? We have to be ridiculously vigilant. The devil is in the details, just like this little addition of diocese. It's a detail, it's true, it's not objectively wrong, it might even be argued as appropriate. BUT at the same time it flies in the face of the "as we are" mantra. All the little details are adding up too quickly. And again, very strategically of them, it cannot be argued against without being perceived as being against the Church and the SSPX.

    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1765
    • Reputation: +1446/-127
    • Gender: Female
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #13 on: May 08, 2016, 01:00:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: wallflower
    Quote from: Matthew


    Maybe I'm just a bit cynical, considering everything the SSPX has done so far to betray Tradition.



    That's a problem they've created. Once they've lost trust it's hard to get it back again, even when/if their actions aren't geared to reintegration. How are we supposed to know which words and actions are true and which aren't? We have to be ridiculously vigilant. The devil is in the details, just like this little addition of diocese. It's a detail, it's true, it's not objectively wrong, it might even be argued as appropriate. BUT at the same time it flies in the face of the "as we are" mantra. All the little details are adding up too quickly. And again, very strategically of them, it cannot be argued against without being perceived as being against the Church and the SSPX.


    Good observation. If we are cynical or seemingly overly scrutinous,  it's because we have felt the sting of the betrayals and are preparing ourselves for the most painful one yet...
     

    Offline stgobnait

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1346
    • Reputation: +941/-65
    • Gender: Female
    More proof of imminent SSPX-Rome deal
    « Reply #14 on: May 08, 2016, 01:32:57 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • It will be like a poultice being removed, extremely painful, then relief...