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Offline SeanJohnson

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More Menzingen Propaganda
« on: November 30, 2012, 03:58:25 PM »
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  • From SSPX.org's "Pastor's Corner:"

    The “need” to know all vs. peace of soul
    1st Sunday of December:
    1st Sunday of Advent

    Vice may show itself as an inordinateness in the craving and eagerness to learn the truth. This may be in four ways. One way is when this eagerness withdraws a person from another pursuit, which is his bounden duty. In another way, when one is eager to learn from an unlawful source. The third way is when one seeks to learn the truth about creatures without reference to the due end, which is the knowledge of God. A fourth way is inasmuch as one is eager to know that truth which lies above his knowledge; for thereby men easily fall into errors. (St. Thomas Aquinas, Ethicus)

    We often criticize the entertainment world for turning away souls from their duties and especially from God. Chief among these distractions which ensnare souls are the continually-changing landscape of digital media (such as blogs, social networking tools, YouTube, apps, texting, Internet newsfeeds, etc.) which perhaps comprise today’s greatest means of distraction.

    These technological means - with their temptations towards distraction and most especially towards that curiosity St. Thomas warned us about earlier – are often used in a way that undermine authority, whether in the family, business, city, state, or even religion.

    This is usually the consequence of a modern day falsehood which we could call the “democratization of knowledge”. This common liberal error stems from the false ideology of democracy, that authority is “of the people and by the people”, rather than “there is no authority except from God.” (Rom. 13, 1). Through this falsehood, modern man believes he has the right to knowledge of all things and considers himself responsible for all decisions. Ultimately this democratic way of thinking lapses into deceptive pride and even practical atheism: because no longer having confidence or hope in God, one no longer considers oneself beholden to His Providence.

    The mindset that I have a right to all knowledge regardless of duty of state or position in life, originates in the liberal perspective, and feeds itself from the tremendous amount of information circulating worldwide and at the dizzying speed of the Internet. But this attitude is motivated more by the spirit of envy and revenge (that is, a liberal sense of “justice”) than by the love of Truth. Thus this mentality seeks to free itself from any bonds of authority, while seeking to destroy any distinction amongst men – even daring to equate man to God. And so feeling threatened by any authority than himself, this person views any manifestation of external authority as an injustice to his individual will.

    Ultimately from this modern spirit of an unbalanced desire for information and an insistence on a “right to know”, souls will be led away from Christ’s peace - a peace which worldly things cannot give. It will also imbue the mind to question and criticize everything and according to its own reasoning. Another more subtle effect of this false ideology is to focus blame on an individual – e.g., a “scapegoat complex” – when expectations (sometimes unreasonable) of “informational transparency” are not fulfilled.

    Unfortunately, examples of such defects were witnessed amongst even traditionally-minded Catholics concerning recent events affecting the Society of St. Pius X – with the legitimate exercising of authority being the preferred target. But how could this occur with Catholics who adhere to the True Mass, the True Sacraments, and the True Faith?

    Precisely because the underlying spirit of those disturbed was one of a lack of submission to authority, fed by an incessant “need” to know, and a “need” to be informed about all information, regardless of their state (e.g., non-SSPX members do not have a strict right to be kept informed about the internal affairs of the SSPX, which is a religious congregation).

    The inability to obtain the information they “needed” and which they felt they had a “right” to, led to resentment and thence the scapegoating of persons (authority) from who they felt slighted by, through misunderstandings, buzz, rumors, suspicions, detractions, half-truths, and calumnies – and then fed upon by other disenchanted “I’ve must know!” information-seekers.

    We must beware this diabolical tendency that perpetuates Lucifer’s “I will not serve”, which leads to a loathing of obedience and respect to authority, particularly when it does not yield to opinions, either of the world or from subordinates. Such a mentality is disastrous to the spiritual life – let alone Catholic; cue the destruction wrought by Martin Luther and the Protestant revolution.

    Those who adhere to such an attitude reveal a lack of fortitude and constancy – obsessed by security, they see danger everywhere every time. Their prudence is frequently faulty in counsel, judgment and action. Justice is blinded by a great moral confusion and concern for truth is more or less restricted to an abstract field, and only so long as that “truth” fits their pre-conceived notion. This in turn leads to practically adopting the error that the end justifies the means.

    In the end, through the person’s ever-growing bitterness (which Archbishop Lefebvre specifically warned traditionalists about), the person develops an obsessive mind thereby losing his balance of temperance in the social life – but in the use of his time, devices and even creatures. The worst effect though is his terrible lack of trust in God and His Grace which endangers the theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity.

    Archbishop Lefebvre once remarked that all of us in this modern age have been affected in some way or another by the errors of liberalism and thus must make a close examination of ourselves to see where. The “need” (nay, addiction) for information – continually and instantly – is just one practical aspect of liberal ideology that we can be prone to.

    But with purified minds infused by the Catholic principles, we can continue to steadily advance in the way of perfection and sanctity to Heaven, where all things will ultimately be revealed.

    http://sspx.org/pastors_corner/pastors_cor...cember_2012.htm




     
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 04:01:24 PM »
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  • Kind of funny that this whole line or argumentation could be aimed right back at the SSPX "authorities" for their refusal to submit to lawful authority in Rome regarding Vatican II.

    But that is crimethink to notice the contradiction and hypocrisy.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 04:07:24 PM »
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  • "Informational transparency"

    In the old days, it was called HONESTY.

    This is a pure cult mentality that is being advanced here.

    Bishop Fellay is not one Catholic's ordinary!  That is the truth.

    The Pope Leo XIII told us to strip off the mask of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

    We know there are liberalizers and judaizers now in the SSPX.

    And their apologists.

    Quote from: 2 Peter 2
    1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be lying teachers among you, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

    2 And many shall follow their luxuries, through whom the way of truth shall be blasphemed:

    3 And through covetousness with feigned words they shall make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time ceaseth not, and their perdition slumbereth not.

    4 *For if God spared not the Angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down with infernal ropes into hell to be tormented, to be reserved unto judgment.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 04:11:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Kind of funny that this whole line or argumentation could be aimed right back at the SSPX "authorities" for their refusal to submit to lawful authority in Rome regarding Vatican II.

    But that is crimethink to notice the contradiction and hypocrisy.


    Catholics don't need to know, for example, what Archbishop Lefebvre preached, as his sermons were suppressed.

    This is a raw usurpation by people who have NO AUTHORITY.  

    "lawful disobedience" requires knowledge.  Blind obedience requires ignorance.

    The neo-SSPX demands its followers be ignorant and blindly obey those with no authority.

    As bowler said:

    Traditionalists founded the parishes to preserve the Faith, the SSPX comes in, takes over the properties, then begins a slow-boil movement towards compromise, while demanding obedience.

    It is the most abject perfidy imaginable.  




    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 04:12:23 PM »
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  • What a load of sophisms and bad logic, diabolically clever, calculated to trap the unwary!

    Even I (who studied logic) would have to sit down and really think about some of those points, to write up a rebuttal of how these various arguments are wrong.

    I just know a lot of "leaps" and false comparisons were made, and that plenty of sophisms were employed.

    Remember, the SSPX priests are among the most intelligent of the traditional Catholics. It takes a certain minimum intelligence to "make it" in a traditional seminary. When they "sell out" or decide that they really, really want to be united with Rome, they will use their considerable brain power toward that end.

    How many of us laymen can deal with this level of intelligent sophistry? Very, very few. And those that CAN see through it would have a heck of a time rebutting it in their coffee & donut halls after Mass, when old ladies print out this letter and shove it in our faces.

    It's really an uphill battle we face.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 04:18:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Kind of funny that this whole line or argumentation could be aimed right back at the SSPX "authorities" for their refusal to submit to lawful authority in Rome regarding Vatican II.

    But that is crimethink to notice the contradiction and hypocrisy.


    Clarification Note:

    1) The SSPX was right (compelled, in fact) to resist the Roman apostates and their false doctrines.

    2) I accuse Menzingen of hypocrisy for once having used justified resistance against Rome, while today condemning us of disobedience for our justified resistence to their sellout.

    3) If we are wrong to do so today, they were wrong to do so yesterday.  

    4) If they were right for resisting previously, we are right for resisting today.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 04:19:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    How many of us laymen can deal with this level of intelligent sophistry? Very, very few. And those that CAN see through it would have a heck of a time rebutting it in their coffee & donut halls after Mass, when old ladies print out this letter and shove it in our faces.


    The essential problem with this attempt to reframe the debate as a question of people having inordinate curiousity and vigilance, is that it completely dodges the point that the TRUTH of what is going on matters and is the business of Catholics.

    When Father Rostand told people the doctrinal preamble is not the business of the laity - that is a JOKE.

    Why do people follow the SSPX in the first place?

    Is Bishop Fellay their ordinary?

    No one follows the SSPX to blindly submit to authority leading back to Vatican II.

    That is completely senseless!

    All these attacks on the critics are BESIDES THE POINT.

    These people, when they're wrong, they ALWAYS resort to blackening the reputation of their critics.  Without fail.

    They CAN'T TELL THE TRUTH - so when the fire is held to their feet as it ought to be - they try to tell their interlocutors to be "be charitable" "accept God's will" "know your place" - the last thing they will ever do is BE HONEST.  They are seemingly incapable of it.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 04:22:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Matthew
    How many of us laymen can deal with this level of intelligent sophistry? Very, very few. And those that CAN see through it would have a heck of a time rebutting it in their coffee & donut halls after Mass, when old ladies print out this letter and shove it in our faces.


    The essence of the matter Matthew, is that it completely dodges the point that the TRUTH of what is going on matters and is the business of Catholics.

    When Father Rostand told people the doctrinal preamble is not the business of the laity - that is a JOKE.

    Why do people follow the SSPX in the first place?

    Is Bishop Fellay their ordinary?

    No one follows the SSPX to blindly submit to authority leading back to Vatican II.

    That is completely senseless!

    All these attacks on the critics are BESIDES THE POINT.

    These, when they're wrong, they ALWAYS resort to blackening the reputation of their critics.  Without fail.

    They CAN'T TELL THE TRUTH - so when the fire is held to their feet as it ought to be - they try to tell their interlocutors to be "be charitable" "accept God's will" "know your place" - the last thing they will ever do is BE HONEST.  They are seemingly incapable of it.



    Tele said:

    "No one follows the SSPX to blindly submit to authority leading back to Vatican II."

     :cheers:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Incredulous

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    « Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 04:33:08 PM »
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  • The SSPX priests are given their weekly "talking points".
    This was revealed by an SSPX priest in our chapel in 2011.

    Not sure if the flow is:  Menzingen ---> Fr. Rostand ---> SSPX priests ?

    There is obviously very tight control of the information that is fed to us.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 04:41:34 PM »
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  • I'm pretty sure this priest is at Regina Coeli house.

    Understanding the subversion of the Catholic Church is "liberal error"

    As Seraphim said, it's pure hypocrisy.

    When you go back and look, more often than not, the Fellayites are parroting exactly the same kinds of criticisms the conciliarists made against Traditionalists in the beginning.

    "Leave it to the experts" "accept your place" "it's a liberal error to find and use knowledge against liberal priests!"

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 04:44:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    I'm pretty sure this priest is at Regina Coeli house.

    Understanding the subversion of the Catholic Church is "liberal error"

    As Seraphim said, it's pure hypocrisy.

    When you go back and look, more often than not, the Fellayites are parroting exactly the same kinds of criticisms the conciliarists made against Traditionalists in the beginning.

    "Leave it to the experts" "accept your place" "it's a liberal error to find and use knowledge against liberal priests!"


    Tele said:

    "When you go back and look, more often than not, the Fellayites are parroting exactly the same kinds of criticisms the conciliarists made against Traditionalists in the beginning."

    Response:

    Precisely!
     :cheers:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline JMacQ

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    « Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 05:03:24 PM »
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  •  "non-SSPX members do not have a strict right to be kept informed about the internal affairs of the SSPX, which is a religious congregation"

    Since when?

    And if the SSPX is a religious congregation, since when the superiors and priests of a religious congregation can deny the sacraments to the faithful?

    This is getting crazier and crazier by the minute, methinks.
    O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
    Praised be Jesus ad Mary!

    "Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta"

    Offline Machabees

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    « Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 10:04:31 PM »
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  • In reference to the post’s SSPX.org article:

    “The Pasture’s Corner -The “need” to know all vs. peace of soul.”

    This is all so sad and very simple –JUST TELL THE TRUTH!

    When you say the truth in all things without the need of putting out “hit pieces and double-speak”, then the crisis goes away.  

    Menzingen this is a cause and effect situation!  You created the CAUSE in your own words of not telling the truth from the get go and all throughout (…).  The EFFECT is, our Catholic sense picks up you, as shepherds, are not being honest with the Church’s Treasure –the Faith (…).

    If you are ambiguous and sneaky with your double-speak, then yes we “need” to know.  Scripture says: TEST ALL THINGS!  So we “need” to ask questions and know, in order to follow you, if you are a true Shepherd, or if you are turning into a hireling!

    Are the questions from the four corners of the Traditional Catholic world to revealing for you?  
    Why do you continue to hide and give a lame answer to our valid and fair questions to label it as an “unbalanced desire for information”?   (“Ultimately from this modern spirit of an unbalanced desire for information and an insistence on a “right to know”, souls will be led away from Christ’s peace…)

    So yes Menzingen, when you tell the truth –we will have “peace of soul” with you.  Until then, you are a distraction…unto the good.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 10:32:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Quote from: Seraphim
    Kind of funny that this whole line or argumentation could be aimed right back at the SSPX "authorities" for their refusal to submit to lawful authority in Rome regarding Vatican II.

    But that is crimethink to notice the contradiction and hypocrisy.


    Clarification Note:

    1) The SSPX was right (compelled, in fact) to resist the Roman apostates and their false doctrines.

    2) I accuse Menzingen of hypocrisy for once having used justified resistance against Rome, while today condemning us of disobedience for our justified resistence to their sellout.

    3) If we are wrong to do so today, they were wrong to do so yesterday.  

    4) If they were right for resisting previously, we are right for resisting today.


    I really don't see how anyone can debate that.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 11:31:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    What a load of sophisms and bad logic, diabolically clever, calculated to trap the unwary!

    Even I (who studied logic) would have to sit down and really think about some of those points, to write up a rebuttal of how these various arguments are wrong.

    I just know a lot of "leaps" and false comparisons were made, and that plenty of sophisms were employed.

    Remember, the SSPX priests are among the most intelligent of the traditional Catholics. It takes a certain minimum intelligence to "make it" in a traditional seminary. When they "sell out" or decide that they really, really want to be united with Rome, they will use their considerable brain power toward that end.

    How many of us laymen can deal with this level of intelligent sophistry? Very, very few. And those that CAN see through it would have a heck of a time rebutting it in their coffee & donut halls after Mass, when old ladies print out this letter and shove it in our faces.

    It's really an uphill battle we face.



    It seems to me that we need a cheat sheet rebuttal outline point by point, before
    the old ladies shove a print-out in our faces:  

    We will then have one to shove back into their faces!   :drillsergeant:




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