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Author Topic: More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:  (Read 13241 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
« on: November 14, 2013, 09:47:59 PM »
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  • I have declared myself a member of the internal resistance, and openly opposed the strategems of Menzingen in recent years, implemented to foster a merely practical accord which would have been the spiritual death of us all.

    I commented openly on the troubling statements, communiques, docuмents, and actions of Menzingen (and the various District offices) even as recently as 3-4 weeks ago.

    But when I did so, hopefully I did it within the bounds of Catholic morality, giving the benefit of the doubt, even against my own instinct sometimes, if there was a plausible explanation to the contrary, or if I knew there was information I was not privy to which might offer a reconciling explanation.

    I have taken heat for that position, though for the life of me, I cannot see the flaw in that approach.

    Most recently, I have extended this benefit of the doubt to the recent comments of Bishop Fellay, for the following reasons:

    1) Because it is commanded by Catholic moral theology;

    2) Because I see indications which could fortify this benefit, such as the attempt at the Priebke funeral; the polarizing effect these comments will have on the Romans, thereby making a future practical accord even more remote; the comments themselves, which squarely contradict the primary tenet of the branding campaign: Thou shalt not condemn modernism or Rome; etc.

    Now I have just been made aware of yet another corroborative indication:

    The October, 2013 edition of the "Nova et Vetera," which is a "publication of the priories of the Society of St. Pius X in South Africa."

    The primary authors of the publication are Fr. Peter Scott and Fr. Paul Kimball (i.e., the priest who heroically "leaked" the "Letter of the Three Bishops to Bishop Fellay").

    Even more interestingly, is the fact that the District Superior of South Africa is Fr. Duverger (which, unless there is more than one Fr. Duverger in the SSPX, was quite active in some unpopular actions in Post Falls in 2012).

    Yet he allows this newsletter to be published officially.

    I could not find an online link to the newsletter, and (curiously) the South Africa District website link from the SSPX.org website currently does not work, but here are some of the topics in the newsletter which certainly would not have been permitted a year ago:

    1) Front page features the photo of the (presumable) Pope  with a beach ball on the altar at St. Mary Major; 2nd page shows him wearing pagan Indian feathers;

    2) The 1st article by Fr. Scott roundly rips Pope Francis, and the hermeneutic of continuity in the process;

    3) The next short article is the beginning of a series praising the great figures of the anti-modernist counter-revolution, beginning with St. Thomas Aquinas;

    4) Then follows a frontal attack on modernism (squarely again, against the primary tenet of the hopefully abandoned branding campaign) quoting Pope St. Pius X on the role of St. Thomas in opposing modernism;

    The point being that the foot soldiers appear to have been emboldened by the recent comments of Bishop Fellay (even if that was not the intention; who knows?).

    To me, that is but another reason to watch and wait, and see what plays out.

    Meanwhile, there are no countervailing indications that the rewind is phantasmal; even the weird "Flying Squirrel" newsletter of India was written back in July (published in August), before Bishop Felays recent comments.

    Where am I going with all this?

    To wait, watch, and pray is neither "soft", naïve, or erroneous.

    There are enough indications for a prudent man to pause and see how things play out.

    PS: If anyone can find an online version of the October, 2013 "Nova et Vetera," it would be a tremendous help to this particular conversation.

    Pax.

     
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #1 on: November 14, 2013, 10:26:31 PM »
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  • Of course, no sooner do I write this, than I see an article just published on the SSPX.org website announcing the election of a new USCCB president.

    Note to SSPX: Who the hell cares???

    One wonders why the website would bother with publishing this kind of pablum, lest they desire to keep us abreast of Conciliar happenings as a tactic for keeping us from falling too far away from it.

    And if that was indeed the motive, then it could only be because at least some have not given up entirely on the idea of a future practical accord.

    Publishing this kind of thing on a SSPX website is certainly a countervailing indication against giving Bishop Fellay the benefit of the doubt about the sincerity of his recent comments, and the suspicion he is trying to discretely rewind his recent measures designed to bring about a practical accord.

    But it is only one countervailing indication versus 4-5 indications to the contrary.

    In such a confusing mess, do you now see the prudence in sitting back, watching, and waiting?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline sea leopard

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 12:43:55 AM »
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  • Is this what you are looking for.?? now to get a pdf file here?

    Offline Wessex

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 04:20:21 AM »
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  • If we are to assume the MO in Menzingen is political, what happens there and in the provinces will be a reaction to events in Rome and the current state of play between the two centres. I think this has always been the case and has given folk grounds for thinking this corner of tradition is not serious or is half-hearted. We should not read too much into the slack allowed the foot soldiers to revisit old SSPX positions. That can be wound in at a stroke next time Menzingen gets friendly with Rome. None-SSPX trads will say they have seen it all before! Frs. Scott and Kimball should be doing positive work outside this particular game.    

    Offline Ekim

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #4 on: November 15, 2013, 07:09:20 AM »
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  • I've heard SSPX priests say "Tell those resistance priests that we support them from the inside".  How much more effective would such priest’s be if they stood up and also pointed out not only who the modernists in Rome are but also those within the SSPX?  Does not moral theology require that all dangers to the faith be pointed out? What an impact there would be if great and respected Priests such as Fr. Scott, Fr. Kimball, and others made such a stand.


    Offline JPaul

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #5 on: November 15, 2013, 07:52:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Wessex
    If we are to assume the MO in Menzingen is political, what happens there and in the provinces will be a reaction to events in Rome and the current state of play between the two centres. I think this has always been the case and has given folk grounds for thinking this corner of tradition is not serious or is half-hearted. We should not read too much into the slack allowed the foot soldiers to revisit old SSPX positions. That can be wound in at a stroke next time Menzingen gets friendly with Rome. None-SSPX trads will say they have seen it all before! Frs. Scott and Kimball should be doing positive work outside this particular game.    


    This is quite true, what is being allowed today can be washed away at any time and perhaps we are entering into another velvet glove period to quell the restlessness of the natives.
    And I do not see the internal/external characterization as a reality. There is this external if you will, resistance which can be called as such but the so called internal resistance is more correctly termed as sympathizers.
    Were any of them to actually resist while in the structure, they would soon find themselves outside of it.

    Offline ancien regime

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #6 on: November 15, 2013, 07:55:38 AM »
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  • There are three (3) Fathers Duverger in the SSPX, three brothers:

    Fr. Loic Duverger is the District Superior of Africa.
    Fr. Pierre Duverger works closely with Fr. Rostand at Regina Coeli House in Missouri.
    Fr. Patrick Duverger is a priest in France.

    As far as I can tell, all three brothers are enthusiastic supporters of Bishop Fellay.

    As far as Fr. Scott and Fr. Kimball go, please note that they have both been sent to Africa as punishment for their "sins" of disagreeing with Menzingen.

    And please don't forget that this new "kinder, gentler" SSPX hierarchy has just suspended Fr. Pinaud for disagreeing with them, after holding him prisoner in Austria for months--despite the fact that as the superior general of a pious union Bishop Fellay has absolutely no jurisdiction nor canonical power to actually suspend Fr. Pinaud.


    Offline ultrarigorist

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #7 on: November 15, 2013, 08:28:06 AM »
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  • So, where's the praise for a living anti-modernist figure?
    Oh, +W for example... These articles are just a finely adjusted relief valve blowing off steam. If not for such condescension allowing these token gestures, the resistance might have two more priests.


    Offline stgobnait

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #8 on: November 15, 2013, 08:46:53 AM »
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  • whatever these priest's choose to write, is completely usless, without actions.... Useless.  :kick-can:

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 09:23:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: stgobnait
    whatever these priest's choose to write, is completely usless, without actions.... Useless.  :kick-can:

    I agree.  Words without real action.

    Offline John Grace

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 09:58:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    I've heard SSPX priests say "Tell those resistance priests that we support them from the inside".  How much more effective would such priest’s be if they stood up and also pointed out not only who the modernists in Rome are but also those within the SSPX?  Does not moral theology require that all dangers to the faith be pointed out? What an impact there would be if great and respected Priests such as Fr. Scott, Fr. Kimball, and others made such a stand.


    Well stated. It was a bit like the Irish SSPX laity, who went on pilgrimage with Fr Morgan. A more powerful message would have been sent out had the priests turned up to find no laity present.

    I accept Fr M has made some noise but supporting the resistance from within is a cope out.

    Priests need to take a stand but I don't believe for a moment that they will.

    Fr M did attack us. He attacked the Catholic Resistance.


    Offline John Grace

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 10:11:25 AM »
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  • Quote
    In such a confusing mess, do you now see the prudence in sitting back, watching, and waiting?


    What is such a "confusing mess"? It's fairly clear to most people. Whilst you are sitting back waiting, others will act.  

    Let us have action.

    Offline John Grace

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    « Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 10:13:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: ancien regime
    There are three (3) Fathers Duverger in the SSPX, three brothers:

    Fr. Loic Duverger is the District Superior of Africa.
    Fr. Pierre Duverger works closely with Fr. Rostand at Regina Coeli House in Missouri.
    Fr. Patrick Duverger is a priest in France.

    As far as I can tell, all three brothers are enthusiastic supporters of Bishop Fellay.

    As far as Fr. Scott and Fr. Kimball go, please note that they have both been sent to Africa as punishment for their "sins" of disagreeing with Menzingen.

    And please don't forget that this new "kinder, gentler" SSPX hierarchy has just suspended Fr. Pinaud for disagreeing with them, after holding him prisoner in Austria for months--despite the fact that as the superior general of a pious union Bishop Fellay has absolutely no jurisdiction nor canonical power to actually suspend Fr. Pinaud.



    "Pious Union' is key in all this. Laity of the SSPX tend to believe Bishop Fellay is their Superior.

    Offline John Grace

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    More Evidence of a Menzingen Rewind:
    « Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 10:18:13 AM »
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  • SeanJohnson,

    With respect you can't assume everybody is confused just because you are. I attended the first day of a conference given by Bishop Williamson. It was an eye opener for many who attended.

    A few couldn't believe Fr Celier and others were saying and do these things.

    Why is it so difficult to believe? I was amazed how shocked SSPX laity were given the plans regarding the new direction.

    As stgobnait has stated many SSPX folk also attend the Indult.

    I fail to understand your confusion. There has always been varying opinion among SSPX laity. Some are more hardline than others.

    The more rad Trads have followed the resistance.

    Those who haven't already left SSPX chapels haven't a notion of doing so.

    Offline John Grace

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    « Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 10:29:05 AM »
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  • Some Catholics keep a foot in both camps. The SSPX and the Indult. Some even attend the Novus Ordo. It's something that should not be encouraged.

    Same for the Catholic Resistance and the surrendered SSPX. Laity can't move on if they keep their feet in SSPX chapels.

    I feel our fellow Catholic must use their initiative and establish more Resistance chapels and support resistance events, pilgrimages etc etc.

    Obviously the neo SSPX will back track, save face etc etc. Reform of the SSPX is not possible.