Quote from: s2srea

This is disturbing.

Someone told me a few months back that Bishop Williamson was in Garden Grove w/ Fr. Perez. I didn't want to believe him, but I guess he was right. I know Fr. Perez personally, though casually, and I refuse to attend his chapel due to his recklessness, in my opinion, with the treatment of the sacraments. He has stated publically, from the pulpit, that those who have such concerns of the validity of the new rites are "validity freaks." I also know that he has cautioned priests who have come to him from the Novus Ordo, to 'not' seek conditional ordination, even when they have doubts.

It looks as if there's no 'group' that fits me in this crisis. I've almost exclusively attended the CMRI now for the past year, but I'm not a sede. That's okay with me. Their priests have proven to be some of the holiest men I've met. I support the resistance in principle, with regards to their rejection of the direction of the NeoSSPX, but I cannot support them in this. I've even had words with Fr. Hewko in recent months and I learned that I also disagree with him on the issues of validity.

I agree that it's disturbing.

I am totally ignorant about Fr. Perez, but you seem to be from the area and know a bit about the situation.

You don't have to dismiss a group, however, just because you find some imperfection here or there.

Well, in this case we are talking about something more serious than just an imperfection.  This is about the validity of the sacraments… and how reliable are those who recommend us to go to someone who might not be a priest.

Well, in this case we are talking about something more serious than just an imperfection.  This is about the validity of the sacraments… and how reliable are those who recommend us to go to someone who might not be a priest.

In the context of a whole group of priests (many of whom are holy, well-trained, educated, give countless grace, have saved many souls, etc.), one priest ordained in the New Rite is an imperfection for the group.

Even if one priest was invalidly ordained, it wouldn't take away the good done by the rest of the group.

And yes, even if Fr. Pfeiffer or Fr. Hewko recommended that people attend that (invalidly ordained) priest's Mass, it would only be a "ding" on his prudence or good judgment. It wouldn't take away Fr. Pfeiffer's priesthood, invalidate his own sacraments, or nullify the countless good he's done over the years.

You need to keep things in perspective, and stop being such a perfectionist when it comes to which priests you support. Stop throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Is there NO item of judgment which isn't our business, or which should be left to God? People start off by making legitimate judgments (is this or that priest  defending the Faith and fighting modernism? Does this priest take his priesthood seriously? Can I trust him with my Faith?) and then "mission creep" occurs, until they're well into the range of being nosy and judging things in the private forum.

God will judge each and every priest, for each and every day of their priesthood. Let's leave some judgement to Him, shall we?

This sectarian, partisan spirit is probably the biggest problem in Traddieland. Even though I personally hate sports, I am tempted to suggest that many Trads get into sports so they can get the "team spirit" out of their system in a more healthy manner!

Quote from: Adolphus

Well, in this case we are talking about something more serious than just an imperfection.  This is about the validity of the sacraments… and how reliable are those who recommend us to go to someone who might not be a priest.

In the context of a whole group of priests (many of whom are holy, well-trained, educated, give countless grace, have saved many souls, etc.), one priest ordained in the New Rite is an imperfection for the group.

Even if one priest was invalidly ordained, it wouldn't take away the good done by the rest of the group.

What group are you referring to?  The resistance is not a formal group.  Many of those who live near Garden Grove will continually receive the "sacraments" and advices from "Monsignor" Perez (or from one of the other "priests" who are there) and eventually once or twice a year from a visiting priest.  Meanwhile, no true confessions, no true Mass, etc.

And yes, even if Fr. Pfeiffer or Fr. Hewko recommended that people attend that (invalidly ordained) priest's Mass, it would only be a "ding" on his prudence or good judgment. It wouldn't take away Fr. Pfeiffer's priesthood, invalidate his own sacraments, or nullify the countless good he's done over the years.

Bp. Fellay hasn't lost the priesthood either.  Neither has BXVI...

You need to keep things in perspective, and stop being such a perfectionist when it comes to which priests you support. Stop throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Is there NO item of judgment which isn't our business, or which should be left to God? People start off by making legitimate judgments (is this or that priest  defending the Faith and fighting modernism? Does this priest take his priesthood seriously? Can I trust him with my Faith?) and then "mission creep" occurs, until they're well into the range of being nosy and judging things in the private forum.

God will judge each and every priest, for each and every day of their priesthood. Let's leave some judgement to Him, shall we?

I receive back in the late 70s a very similar answer from a priest I asked his advice about the modernist mass.  The priest was modernist, of course.

This sectarian, partisan spirit is probably the biggest problem in Traddieland. Even though I personally hate sports, I am tempted to suggest that many Trads get into sports so they can get the "team spirit" out of their system in a more healthy manner!

It couldn't be otherwise: "Strike the shepherd …"

Quote from: Adolphus

Well, in this case we are talking about something more serious than just an imperfection.  This is about the validity of the sacraments… and how reliable are those who recommend us to go to someone who might not be a priest.

In the context of a whole group of priests (many of whom are holy, well-trained, educated, give countless grace, have saved many souls, etc.), one priest ordained in the New Rite is an imperfection for the group.

Even if one priest was invalidly ordained, it wouldn't take away the good done by the rest of the group.

And yes, even if Fr. Pfeiffer or Fr. Hewko recommended that people attend that (invalidly ordained) priest's Mass, it would only be a "ding" on his prudence or good judgment. It wouldn't take away Fr. Pfeiffer's priesthood, invalidate his own sacraments, or nullify the countless good he's done over the years.

You need to keep things in perspective, and stop being such a perfectionist when it comes to which priests you support. Stop throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Is there NO item of judgment which isn't our business, or which should be left to God? People start off by making legitimate judgments (is this or that priest  defending the Faith and fighting modernism? Does this priest take his priesthood seriously? Can I trust him with my Faith?) and then "mission creep" occurs, until they're well into the range of being nosy and judging things in the private forum.

God will judge each and every priest, for each and every day of their priesthood. Let's leave some judgement to Him, shall we?

This sectarian, partisan spirit is probably the biggest problem in Traddieland. Even though I personally hate sports, I am tempted to suggest that many Trads get into sports so they can get the "team spirit" out of their system in a more healthy manner!

Hear hear! Great post Matthew!

When it comes to the matter of the validity of Orders within the SSPX and the Resistance, does anyone think that one of the first questions during the interview is not concentrated on the applicant's ordination? And if it's determined that the priest needs to be conditionally ordained or re-ordained, that there would be a reason they would not do it?

My guess is that when these NO priests wake up and actually make the commitment to leave the NO faith for the true faith, that they are probably the first ones to make sure about the validity of their ordination.
 

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Adolphus

Well, in this case we are talking about something more serious than just an imperfection.  This is about the validity of the sacraments… and how reliable are those who recommend us to go to someone who might not be a priest.

In the context of a whole group of priests (many of whom are holy, well-trained, educated, give countless grace, have saved many souls, etc.), one priest ordained in the New Rite is an imperfection for the group.

Even if one priest was invalidly ordained, it wouldn't take away the good done by the rest of the group.

And yes, even if Fr. Pfeiffer or Fr. Hewko recommended that people attend that (invalidly ordained) priest's Mass, it would only be a "ding" on his prudence or good judgment. It wouldn't take away Fr. Pfeiffer's priesthood, invalidate his own sacraments, or nullify the countless good he's done over the years.

You need to keep things in perspective, and stop being such a perfectionist when it comes to which priests you support. Stop throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Is there NO item of judgment which isn't our business, or which should be left to God? People start off by making legitimate judgments (is this or that priest  defending the Faith and fighting modernism? Does this priest take his priesthood seriously? Can I trust him with my Faith?) and then "mission creep" occurs, until they're well into the range of being nosy and judging things in the private forum.

Msgr. Perez is not afraid to tackle the topic of Modernism, which is more than I can say for the CMRI priests I've known.  

Fr. Frederick Schell had 12 years training as a Jesuit and he chose Fr. Perez from a significant list of other priests to be his replacement at the end of his life.  Fr. Schell died in 2002, and it was Fr. Perez who administered last rites to him.  Who among us would dare judge the great pioneer and conservator of Sacred Tradition, Fr. Schell, in his judgment or appropriateness of Fr. Perez for his own priest and for the pastor of the hundreds of souls for whom Fr. Schell was their "Good Shepherd?"

We have a lot of problems these days and it seems to me we're SPINNING OUR WHEELS to dredge up controversy where the matters are above our pay grade.  Monsignor Perez is a credentialed theologian, trained in the Angelicuм in Rome under Cardinal Stickler, one of the most traditional clerics from before Vat.II.  You and I might not see every detail of these things as immaculate and above question, but really, folks, you have to choose your battles.

In the end, the Church will be all but extinguished, before Our Lady steps in to set things right, as she crushes the head of the infernal serpent.  It is in her Immaculate intercession where we must first cling without hint of question or doubts.  Our very survival is in her hands, hence, Help of Christians.

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God will judge each and every priest, for each and every day of their priesthood. Let's leave some judgement to Him, shall we?

This sectarian, partisan spirit is probably the biggest problem in Traddieland. Even though I personally hate sports, I am tempted to suggest that many Trads get into sports so they can get the "team spirit" out of their system in a more healthy manner!

Hear hear! Great post Matthew!

When it comes to the matter of the validity of Orders within the SSPX and the Resistance, does anyone think that one of the first questions during the interview is not concentrated on the applicant's ordination? And if it's determined that the priest needs to be conditionally ordained or re-ordained, that there would be a reason they would not do it?

One would think.............

My guess is that when these NO priests wake up and actually make the commitment to leave the NO faith for the true faith, that they are probably the first ones to make sure about the validity of their ordination.
 

It would be great if this were the case.  And Bishop Williamson continues to provide such valid conditional re-ordination for priests who request it.  This is a good thing.  What harm could it do?  All that could result is the removal of doubt.  

The reluctance factor is held up, that any absolutions previously given by such a priest would need to be searched out and the penitent notified to tell his confessor that he might have received invalid absolution at some point in the past.  But I don't know what the implications would be -- how does a priest who heard anonymous confessions for a month or a year or whatever, find contact information of his erstwhile penitents?

Also, Msgr. Perez has proclaimed from the pulpit, that never has Rome judged any ordination of a Catholic priest in history to have been invalid.  (We're not talking about the Anglican ordinations condemnation of Pope Leo XIII.)  Maybe other members here know more about this statement's credibility?  

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Neil - The anglican condemntation applies to the situation of the NO rites.  Read Fr. Jenkins article about the new ordination rite.  It is called "purging the priesthood", and it can be found at novus ordo watch.  

Neil - The anglican condemntation applies to the situation of the NO rites.  Read Fr. Jenkins article about the new ordination rite.  It is called "purging the priesthood", and it can be found at novus ordo watch.  

I have a feeling Neil won't read it. He's only concerned with being in communion with the 'Diocese' of Fr. Perez.

How scandalous (re: Fr. Marshall). Fr. Hewko, for all of his good intentions is, objectively speaking, a bit naive about things.

My confidence in the resistance draws down more and more over time. I can't say, now, that I only support them in principle even. I can only support their initial reactions.