Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: trickster on July 06, 2014, 07:21:25 PM

Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 06, 2014, 07:21:25 PM
Modernism I note  that this term has been used in the sense that the church prior to the Council was in total opposition of modernism as a whole.

What is modernism in the first place; is it anything new - would it include a rejection of life saving technology or information.  Certainly a part of the modernism philosophy is to assert that traditional forms of life prior to the 19th century were outdated.  This was also a very strong criticism of everything the church stood for at the time.

What is it specifically that Vatican II is doing wrong by having conversations with modernist ideas?  I am under the impression that the writing and teaching of the church was aimed at rejecting the rejection of God which was part of the communist movement of the 20th century and the modernist movement in the 19th century.  

Is it not possible to be in conversation with modernism without the rejection of God?

Bruce Ferguson
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: MyrnaM on July 06, 2014, 07:36:24 PM
When we speak of modernism, we speak of it with a capital "M".
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 06, 2014, 07:41:16 PM
Modernism is heresy, not to be confused with a broad term encompassing anything to do with the modern world.

Modernism is the synthesis of all heresy. It is the idea that dogmas can evolve and be understood in a different meaning over time. This is heresy. If a person holds to heresy they are outside the Church. You can be a pagan and believe in God. Catholics believe in God, but that is not the minimum one must believe to be a Catholic.

I will recommend a good book. A catechism of Modernism based off of St. Pius X's official condemnation of Modernism the encyclical  Pascendi Dominici Gregis/ Lamentabili Sane.

Here it is in PDF
http://www.saintsbooks.net/books/Fr.%20J.B.%20Lemius%20-%20Catechism%20on%20Modernism.pdf
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Cantarella on July 06, 2014, 08:22:01 PM
Modernism is the "Synthesis of all Heresies" but is nothing new as old heresies never die.

It does not necessarily include technological advances. A perfect compilation of what the odious heresy of Modernism is about is found in the Papal Encyclical by Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors. Indifferentism being one of the worse afflictions for the Church today. The following propositions are condemned:

Quote

15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.  


More modernist errors:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

Modernism, 'the synthesis of all heresies', as is fought today, is made up of (but not limited to) the following:

• Religious liberty (indifferentism/false ecuмenism)
• Liberty of conscience
• The New mass (Novus Ordo)
• The Cult of Man - The exaltation of the 'rights of man' over the rights of God (naturalism/Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ).
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Cantarella on July 07, 2014, 12:24:06 AM
A good reminder for all here present:

Quote from: Pius X


THE OATH AGAINST MODERNISM

 Given by His Holiness St. Pius X September 1, 1910.

 To be sworn to by all clergy, pastors, confessors, preachers, religious superiors, and professors in philosophical-theological seminaries.

 I . . . . firmly embrace and accept each and every definition that has been set forth and declared by the unerring teaching authority of the Church, especially those principal truths which are directly opposed to the errors of this day. And first of all, I profess that God, the origin and end of all things, can be known with certainty by the natural light of reason from the created world (see Rom. 1:90), that is, from the visible works of creation, as a cause from its effects, and that, therefore, his existence can also be demonstrated: Secondly, I accept and acknowledge the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and I hold that these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time. Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical' misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord.

 Furthermore, with due reverence, I submit and adhere with my whole heart to the condemnations, declarations, and all the prescripts contained in the encyclical Pascendi and in the decree Lamentabili, especially those concerning what is known as the history of dogmas. I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion. I also condemn and reject the opinion of those who say that a well-educated Christian assumes a dual personality-that of a believer and at the same time of a historian, as if it were permissible for a historian to hold things that contradict the faith of the believer, or to establish premises which, provided there be no direct denial of dogmas, would lead to the conclusion that dogmas are either false or doubtful. Likewise, I reject that method of judging and interpreting Sacred Scripture which, departing from the tradition of the Church, the analogy of faith, and the norms of the Apostolic See, embraces the misrepresentations of the rationalists and with no prudence or restraint adopts textual criticism as the one and supreme norm. Furthermore, I reject the opinion of those who hold that a professor lecturing or writing on a historico-theological subject should first put aside any preconceived opinion about the supernatural origin of Catholic tradition or about the divine promise of help to preserve all revealed truth forever; and that they should then interpret the writings of each of the Fathers solely by scientific principles, excluding all sacred authority, and with the same liberty of judgment that is common in the investigation of all ordinary historical docuмents.

 Finally, I declare that I am completely opposed to the error of the modernists who hold that there is nothing divine in sacred tradition; or what is far worse, say that there is, but in a pantheistic sense, with the result that there would remain nothing but this plain simple fact-one to be put on a par with the ordinary facts of history-the fact, namely, that a group of men by their own labor, skill, and talent have continued through subsequent ages a school begun by Christ and his apostles. I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles. The purpose of this is, then, not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of each age; rather, that the absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different, may never be understood in any other way.

 I promise that I shall keep all these articles faithfully, entirely, and sincerely, and guard them inviolate, in no way deviating from them in teaching or in any way in word or in writing. Thus I promise, this I swear, so help me God ...
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 02:41:17 AM
Quote from: MyrnaM
When we speak of modernism, we speak of it with a capital "M".


Yes used as a noun not a verb... I get that..thanks Myrna... did you know my sister's name is Myrna so it is easy to remember your handle :)

Bruce
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 02:49:31 AM
Quote from: Centroamerica


Modernism is the synthesis of all heresy. It is the idea that dogmas can evolve and be understood in a different meaning over time. This is heresy. If a person holds to heresy they are outside the Church. You can be a pagan and believe in God. Catholics believe in God, but that is not the minimum one must believe to be a Catholic.




Thank you Centroamerica.  I have found the link and it was also recommended by Nihil Obstate....(spelling)...not too good at pre-vatican II terms :)

I am not sure that the conciliar church is saying that dogma can evolve or be understood in different meaning over time...then it wouldn't be dogma, right?    I think what we are understanding on our side of the aisle is that the human experience changes, our society is learning more and we are applying what can be brought into service of a greater understanding of dogma.  So how a dogma was explained 200 years ago will not be the way it is explained today.  No one - even on the Traditional Catholic time is talking about going backwards in time but rather anchoring 2014 solidly in what our church has always taught...and because I believe that human experience not just tradition and history need to be used in interpreting and understanding revelation , you and I may not come up with exactly the same perspectives.  But no one is saying that dogmas can evolve and meaning is changing over time.. what is changing is our understanding based on the inclusion of many more voices and emerging science ....  

Could you come up with an example of how the conciliar church is evolving dogma?  As a pagan (and because I am indigenous i am not sure if you are calling me pagan) yes I can believe in God, but even today the concilar church teaches us that the church can bring us the fullness of faith, do you believe that is an evolved understanding of the same dogma you just proposed?  

Belief is a starting point; nourishment and growth within a relationship are another part of that truth.

Anyways, I liked your thoughts so I hope you continue to think with me on this on...take care for now.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 02:52:37 AM
Quote from: Centroamerica


Modernism is the synthesis of all heresy. It is the idea that dogmas can evolve and be understood in a different meaning over time. This is heresy. If a person holds to heresy they are outside the Church. You can be a pagan and believe in God. Catholics believe in God, but that is not the minimum one must believe to be a Catholic.




Thank you Centroamerica.  I have found the link and it was also recommended by Nihil Obstate....(spelling)...not too good at pre-vatican II terms :)

I am not sure that the conciliar church is saying that dogma can evolve or be understood in different meaning over time...then it wouldn't be dogma, right?    I think what we are understanding on our side of the aisle is that the human experience changes, our society is learning more and we are applying what can be brought into service of a greater understanding of dogma.  So how a dogma was explained 200 years ago will not be the way it is explained today.  No one - even on the Traditional Catholic time is talking about going backwards in time but rather anchoring 2014 solidly in what our church has always taught...and because I believe that human experience not just tradition and history need to be used in interpreting and understanding revelation , you and I may not come up with exactly the same perspectives.  But no one is saying that dogmas can evolve and meaning is changing over time.. what is changing is our understanding based on the inclusion of many more voices and emerging science ....  

Could you come up with an example of how the conciliar church is evolving dogma?  As a pagan (and because I am indigenous i am not sure if you are calling me pagan) yes I can believe in God, but even today the concilar church teaches us that the church can bring us the fullness of faith, do you believe that is an evolved understanding of the same dogma you just proposed?  

Belief is a starting point; nourishment and growth within a relationship are another part of that truth.

Anyways, I liked your thoughts so I hope you continue to think with me on this on...take care for now.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: donkath on July 07, 2014, 06:43:50 AM
St. Pius X wrote in his encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis of 8 September, 1907 to his "venerable brothers", the "patriarchs, primates, archbishops, bishops and other local ordinaries, who have peace and communion with the Apostolic See” when wrote about the Modernists:

Quote
Thus then, Venerable Brethren, for the Modernists, both as authors and propagandists, there is to be nothing stable, nothing immutable in the Church. Nor indeed are they without precursors in their doctrines, for it was of these that Our Predecessor Pius IX wrote: These enemies of divine revelation extol human progress to the skies, and with rash and sacrilegious daring would have it introduced into the Catholic religion as if this religion were not the work of God but of man, or some kind of philosophical discovery susceptible of perfection by human efforts.' (Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846)
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 07, 2014, 07:34:01 AM
Quote from: trickster




Could you come up with an example of how the conciliar church is evolving dogma?  
Anyways, I liked your thoughts so I hope you continue to think with me on this on...take care for now.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster


Well, there are so many examples where to start. I can go fetch official docuмents of your pagan conciliar church and compare them with the Catholic Church. There are many. Like in V2 when it says that the Spirit of Christ uses false religions, religious liberty granting rights to errors, the collegiality of the national bishops conferences in contrast with Pastor Aeternus, Pope Francis' recent denial or disrespect to the Immaculate Conception, the novel idea that the Jєωιѕн Covenant was never revoked, the idea that it will be possible for people living in mortal sin to receive Holy Communion, and many more. It is clear and everywhere in official docuмents, official acts and statements etc.

If you still deny that modernism is rampant in the false conciliar church here is a quick 3 minute video of Cardinal Pell telling the world that Adam and Eve were mythological fantasies and that he believes that man evolved from the apes.

http://youtu.be/vlKbDnHDlJc



(A pagan is a person who believes in the naturalist religions and false gods. I mentioned that to contrast your implication that only the important thing is to believe in God and that this is not something to worry about with Modernists. I never assumed you were a pagan but assumed you were not.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 07, 2014, 07:37:13 AM
Quote from: trickster
Quote from: MyrnaM
When we speak of modernism, we speak of it with a capital "M".


Yes used as a noun not a verb... I get that..thanks Myrna... did you know my sister's name is Myrna so it is easy to remember your handle :)

Bruce


She was trying to tell you that you are confusing terms. Modernism as a heresy is with a capital (M) and the modernism to which your post seems to refer to is the modernism of contemporary technologies and culture.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 07:57:37 AM
Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: trickster
Quote from: MyrnaM
When we speak of modernism, we speak of it with a capital "M".


Yes used as a noun not a verb... I get that..thanks Myrna... did you know my sister's name is Myrna so it is easy to remember your handle :)

Bruce


She was trying to tell you that you are confusing terms. Modernism as a heresy is with a capital (M) and the modernism to which your post seems to refer to is the modernism of contemporary technologies and culture.


OK.  So modernism with a small "m" is off the table.  We agree that modern technology and science is a good thing if it is not focused on the denial of God.  Modernism with a "M" then becomes a very focused concept that frames the discussion at hand.  Are we in agreement with that?

Thanks Centroamerica.

Bruce Ferguson
trickster
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 08:06:08 AM
Quote from: donkath
St. Pius X wrote in his encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis of 8 September, 1907 to his "venerable brothers", the "patriarchs, primates, archbishops, bishops and other local ordinaries, who have peace and communion with the Apostolic See” when wrote about the Modernists:

Quote
Thus then, Venerable Brethren, for the Modernists, both as authors and propagandists, there is to be nothing stable, nothing immutable in the Church. Nor indeed are they without precursors in their doctrines, for it was of these that Our Predecessor Pius IX wrote: These enemies of divine revelation extol human progress to the skies, and with rash and sacrilegious daring would have it introduced into the Catholic religion as if this religion were not the work of God but of man, or some kind of philosophical discovery susceptible of perfection by human efforts.' (Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846)


Thank you Donkath.  This statement is very clear that Modernists is a mindset that attacks the long held beliefs of the church, right?  I am not seeing how the conciliar church teachings are even connected in the traditionalist mind with modernist thinking.   Could you come up with some examples?

Bruce Ferguson
trickster
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 08:09:02 AM
Quote from: donkath
St. Pius X wrote in his encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis of 8 September, 1907 to his "venerable brothers", the "patriarchs, primates, archbishops, bishops and other local ordinaries, who have peace and communion with the Apostolic See” when wrote about the Modernists:

Quote
Thus then, Venerable Brethren, for the Modernists, both as authors and propagandists, there is to be nothing stable, nothing immutable in the Church. Nor indeed are they without precursors in their doctrines, for it was of these that Our Predecessor Pius IX wrote: These enemies of divine revelation extol human progress to the skies, and with rash and sacrilegious daring would have it introduced into the Catholic religion as if this religion were not the work of God but of man, or some kind of philosophical discovery susceptible of perfection by human efforts.' (Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846)


Thank you Donkath.  This statement is very clear that Modernists is a mindset that attacks the long held beliefs of the church, right?  I am not seeing how the conciliar church teachings are even connected in the traditionalist mind with modernist thinking.   Could you come up with some examples?

Bruce Ferguson
trickster
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: MyrnaM on July 07, 2014, 08:17:08 AM
One example to consider is this novelty that God loves us exactly the way we are, and we don't have to change one iota.

You see there some truth, "God loves us", but then the Modernistic error, that we don't have to change at all.  
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 08:19:37 AM
To CentroAmerica

Well, there are so many examples where to start. I can go fetch official docuмents of your pagan conciliar church and compare them with the Catholic Church. There are many. Like in V2 when it says that the Spirit of Christ uses false religions, religious liberty granting rights to errors, the collegiality of the national bishops conferences in contrast with Pastor Aeternus, Pope Francis' recent denial or disrespect to the Immaculate Conception, the novel idea that the Jєωιѕн Covenant was never revoked, the idea that it will be possible for people living in mortal sin to receive Holy Communion, and many more. It is clear and everywhere in official docuмents, official acts and statements etc.

"Pagan Conciliar Church"....I am assuming this refers to your earlier statement about pagans can believe in God but the Catholic church requires more.  To use "pagan" when you use it in relation to the church is interesting.  Why do you see the conciliar church in the light of paganism...more importantly how is the church pagan?

"the Spirit of Christ uses false religions, religious liberty granting"....why couldn't the Spirit of Christ use anything for his purposes?  Even communism and modernism...God is in control.    What rights are granted?  

Now, I assume you are comparing church development since the 60s with age old docuмents written by popes in the past.  Where popes have said one thing and it appears that our church is doing something else...is this kind of the direction you are going or is it the sense you have of things?  And are these "evolution of dogma"....?  

Bruce





If you still deny that modernism is rampant in the false conciliar church here is a quick 3 minute video of Cardinal Pell telling the world that Adam and Eve were mythological fantasies and that he believes that man evolved from the apes.

http://youtu.be/vlKbDnHDlJc

Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 08:24:02 AM
To CentroAmerica

Well, there are so many examples where to start. I can go fetch official docuмents of your pagan conciliar church and compare them with the Catholic Church. There are many. Like in V2 when it says that the Spirit of Christ uses false religions, religious liberty granting rights to errors, the collegiality of the national bishops conferences in contrast with Pastor Aeternus, Pope Francis' recent denial or disrespect to the Immaculate Conception, the novel idea that the Jєωιѕн Covenant was never revoked, the idea that it will be possible for people living in mortal sin to receive Holy Communion, and many more. It is clear and everywhere in official docuмents, official acts and statements etc. i

"Pagan Conciliar Church"....I am assuming this refers to your earlier statement about pagans can believe in God but the Catholic church requires more.  To use "pagan" when you use it in relation to the church is interesting.  Why do you see the conciliar church in the light of paganism...more importantly how is the church pagan?

"the Spirit of Christ uses false religions, religious liberty granting"....why couldn't the Spirit of Christ use anything for his purposes?  Even communism and modernism...God is in control.    What rights are granted?  

Now, I assume you are comparing church development since the 60s with age old docuмents written by popes in the past.  Where popes have said one thing and it appears that our church is doing something else...is this kind of the direction you are going or is it the sense you have of things?  And are these "evolution of dogma"....?  

Bruce



If you still deny that modernism is rampant in the false conciliar church here is a quick 3 minute video of Cardinal Pell telling the world that Adam and Eve were mythological fantasies and that he believes that man evolved from the apes.

http://youtu.be/vlKbDnHDlJc


Do you actually believe the two creation stories (Gen 1 and Gen 2) as literal stories?  That is interesting, there seems to be a literal belief in hell, and other concepts in the Bible despite the almost consensual understanding of scripture according to scriptural academics of all Christian denominations...interesting indeed.

Bruce
Trickster
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: trickster on July 07, 2014, 08:25:12 AM
To CentroAmerica

Well, there are so many examples where to start. I can go fetch official docuмents of your pagan conciliar church and compare them with the Catholic Church. There are many. Like in V2 when it says that the Spirit of Christ uses false religions, religious liberty granting rights to errors, the collegiality of the national bishops conferences in contrast with Pastor Aeternus, Pope Francis' recent denial or disrespect to the Immaculate Conception, the novel idea that the Jєωιѕн Covenant was never revoked, the idea that it will be possible for people living in mortal sin to receive Holy Communion, and many more. It is clear and everywhere in official docuмents, official acts and statements etc. i

"Pagan Conciliar Church"....I am assuming this refers to your earlier statement about pagans can believe in God but the Catholic church requires more.  To use "pagan" when you use it in relation to the church is interesting.  Why do you see the conciliar church in the light of paganism...more importantly how is the church pagan?

"the Spirit of Christ uses false religions, religious liberty granting"....why couldn't the Spirit of Christ use anything for his purposes?  Even communism and modernism...God is in control.    What rights are granted?  

Now, I assume you are comparing church development since the 60s with age old docuмents written by popes in the past.  Where popes have said one thing and it appears that our church is doing something else...is this kind of the direction you are going or is it the sense you have of things?  And are these "evolution of dogma"....?  

Bruce



If you still deny that modernism is rampant in the false conciliar church here is a quick 3 minute video of Cardinal Pell telling the world that Adam and Eve were mythological fantasies and that he believes that man evolved from the apes.

http://youtu.be/vlKbDnHDlJc


Do you actually believe the two creation stories (Gen 1 and Gen 2) as literal stories?  That is interesting, there seems to be a literal belief in hell, and other concepts in the Bible despite the almost consensual understanding of scripture according to scriptural academics of all Christian denominations...interesting indeed.

Bruce
Trickster
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 07, 2014, 09:19:53 AM
Quote from: trickster

"Pagan Conciliar Church"....I am assuming this refers to your earlier statement about pagans can believe in God but the Catholic church requires more.  To use "pagan" when you use it in relation to the church is interesting.  Why do you see the conciliar church in the light of paganism...more importantly how is the church pagan?


Sorry,perhaps pagan was an understatement. What better fitting adjetive would you prefer? Devilish? Satanic? Blasphemous? Masonic?



"For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens." Psalm 95
"Behold, I will bring of the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie."- Apocalypse 3:8



Quote from: trickster
Do you actually believe the two creation stories (Gen 1 and Gen 2) as literal stories?  That is interesting, there seems to be a literal belief in hell, and other concepts in the Bible despite the almost consensual understanding of scripture according to scriptural academics of all Christian denominations...interesting indeed.  


So you are denying the literal belief in hell as being only figurative because many heretical sects also believe this and you esteem their "biblical scholars"?

Note that the focus was not on literal interpretation of the Bible but the entire story of creation. Cardinal Pell threw that out the window and said that he believes that man ascended from lower life forms. Do you believe that man was not created in God's image and likeness but rather came into existence through the passage of time and evolution of lower life forms? Despite your attempt to throw thousands of heretical Protestant "scholars" to your side in this matter, even the heretical Protestants all reject this atheistic notion which finds its basis in Marxist dialectical and historical materialism as well.

Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Cantarella on July 07, 2014, 10:47:12 AM
Quote from: MyrnaM
One example to consider is this novelty that God loves us exactly the way we are, and we don't have to change one iota.

You see there some truth, "God loves us", but then the Modernistic error, that we don't have to change at all.  


Another example to consider is this novelty that there is salvation not only IN the Church but also THROUGH the Church, meaning that non-Catholics can also be saved without converting to the True Faith, via last minute implicit desire. This is an example of how the modernists have undermined a Catholic dogma, in this case the salutary EENS dogma of salvation, in which there is a need to have explicit Faith in Christ, receiving the sacraments and being subject to the visible Roman Pontiff.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 07, 2014, 01:18:46 PM
Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: MyrnaM
One example to consider is this novelty that God loves us exactly the way we are, and we don't have to change one iota.

You see there some truth, "God loves us", but then the Modernistic error, that we don't have to change at all.  


Another example to consider is this novelty that there is salvation not only IN the Church but also THROUGH the Church, meaning that non-Catholics can also be saved without converting to the True Faith, via last minute implicit desire. This is an example of how the modernists have undermined a Catholic dogma, in this case the salutary EENS dogma of salvation, in which there is a need to have explicit Faith in Christ, receiving the sacraments and being subject to the visible Roman Pontiff.




You just couldn't help yourself could you? Here you are presented with one solid opportunity to defend the Church against Modernism and possibly win a soul for Christ and instead you would rather obsess over Feenyism. What a fruitless contribution!
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Cantarella on July 07, 2014, 02:10:22 PM
Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: MyrnaM
One example to consider is this novelty that God loves us exactly the way we are, and we don't have to change one iota.

You see there some truth, "God loves us", but then the Modernistic error, that we don't have to change at all.  


Another example to consider is this novelty that there is salvation not only IN the Church but also THROUGH the Church, meaning that non-Catholics can also be saved without converting to the True Faith, via last minute implicit desire. This is an example of how the modernists have undermined a Catholic dogma, in this case the salutary EENS dogma of salvation, in which there is a need to have explicit Faith in Christ, receiving the sacraments and being subject to the visible Roman Pontiff.




You just couldn't help yourself could you? Here you are presented with one solid opportunity to defend the Church against Modernism and possibly win a soul for Christ and instead you would rather obsess over Feenyism. What a fruitless contribution!


Sorry, but there is not possible Church restoration until this issue is resolved. Denial of EENS is precisely the most rotten fruit of Modernism.

Trickster asked for specific examples of how Modernism has changed dogmas. Therefore, the response. If my contribution is not of your liking is just because you adhere to the heretic novelty of invincible ignorance via last minute "BOD", but this does not change the facts.  

Again, as always, is YOU who is making an issue out of it with your BOD obsession.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Cantarella on July 07, 2014, 02:27:05 PM
If you really want to win a soul for Christ, Centroamerica, the most important thing to do, in all charity, is to teach and show this soul that he/she must be explicitly CONVERTED to Catholicism before death, in order to be saved. This must be done with the spirit of love and righteousness.

Instead, Modernism has brought the belief that a Muslim can be saved as a Muslim, a Jew as a Jew, an Hindu as an Hindu... etc, which is simply not true. Therefore the need to defend the exclusivity of the Holy Catholic Roman Church for salvation.

 
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: The Penny Catechism on July 07, 2014, 06:31:57 PM
That's Centro for that Video (Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal G. Pell including the 4/4 video snippets beyond the clip here)

A 'game tape' if you will to breakdown to see real life examples of Pascendi's own intricacies and insights on Modernism (from both sides)

Like a film room study in Belichick's office (lol)

Wish I had more time in the day to analyze and study this :(
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 07, 2014, 06:52:59 PM
Quote from: The Penny Catechism
That's Centro for that Video (Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal G. Pell including the 4/4 video snippets beyond the .....



I don't get it? Pun intended? :smirk:
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Matthew on July 07, 2014, 06:57:38 PM
Quote from: Cantarella
A good reminder for all here present:

Quote from: Pius X


THE OATH AGAINST MODERNISM

 Given by His Holiness St. Pius X September 1, 1910.

 To be sworn to by all clergy, pastors, confessors, preachers, religious superiors, and professors in philosophical-theological seminaries.

 I . . . . firmly embrace and accept each and every definition that has been set forth and declared by the unerring teaching authority of the Church, especially those principal truths which are directly opposed to the errors of this day. And first of all, I profess that God, the origin and end of all things, can be known with certainty by the natural light of reason from the created world (see Rom. 1:90), that is, from the visible works of creation, as a cause from its effects, and that, therefore, his existence can also be demonstrated: Secondly, I accept and acknowledge the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and I hold that these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time. Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical' misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord.

 Furthermore, with due reverence, I submit and adhere with my whole heart to the condemnations, declarations, and all the prescripts contained in the encyclical Pascendi and in the decree Lamentabili, especially those concerning what is known as the history of dogmas. I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion. I also condemn and reject the opinion of those who say that a well-educated Christian assumes a dual personality-that of a believer and at the same time of a historian, as if it were permissible for a historian to hold things that contradict the faith of the believer, or to establish premises which, provided there be no direct denial of dogmas, would lead to the conclusion that dogmas are either false or doubtful. Likewise, I reject that method of judging and interpreting Sacred Scripture which, departing from the tradition of the Church, the analogy of faith, and the norms of the Apostolic See, embraces the misrepresentations of the rationalists and with no prudence or restraint adopts textual criticism as the one and supreme norm. Furthermore, I reject the opinion of those who hold that a professor lecturing or writing on a historico-theological subject should first put aside any preconceived opinion about the supernatural origin of Catholic tradition or about the divine promise of help to preserve all revealed truth forever; and that they should then interpret the writings of each of the Fathers solely by scientific principles, excluding all sacred authority, and with the same liberty of judgment that is common in the investigation of all ordinary historical docuмents.

 Finally, I declare that I am completely opposed to the error of the modernists who hold that there is nothing divine in sacred tradition; or what is far worse, say that there is, but in a pantheistic sense, with the result that there would remain nothing but this plain simple fact-one to be put on a par with the ordinary facts of history-the fact, namely, that a group of men by their own labor, skill, and talent have continued through subsequent ages a school begun by Christ and his apostles. I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles. The purpose of this is, then, not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of each age; rather, that the absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different, may never be understood in any other way.

 I promise that I shall keep all these articles faithfully, entirely, and sincerely, and guard them inviolate, in no way deviating from them in teaching or in any way in word or in writing. Thus I promise, this I swear, so help me God ...


Yes, we must always speak about the heresy Modernism (capital M) when we use that word. If you want to criticize the modern world or something, use some other term. There is no other "modernism" properly called aside from the heresy known by that name.

Having a cell phone is not "modernism" or "a modernism". That's would be a foolish abuse of language. The purpose of language is to convey ideas and be understood.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: The Penny Catechism on July 07, 2014, 08:32:50 PM
Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: The Penny Catechism
That's Centro for that Video (Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal G. Pell including the 4/4 video snippets beyond the .....

I don't get it? Pun intended? :smirk:


No sir. After your video embed, Youtube displays the talk divided into 4 sections each running approximately 15 minutes

While multi-tasking and running errands, I found myself thinking or analyzing the talk with several considerations...and actually stopped what I was doing for a moment to open Pascendi when I got home to write down my thoughts for further inquiry


(1a)On the first video at time ~ 13:41 Dawkins (popularly known as an 'atheist') admits/doesn't deny that he is an Agnostic. He says: "I'm totally confident there is a God. I'm totally confident there isn't a God."
(1b)Pascendi under #6: "But how the Modernists make the transition from Agnosticism, which is a state of pure nescience, to scientific and historic Atheism, which is a doctrine of positive denial..."
(1c)Today one can easily google "Christian Agnostic" and find people who claim as such under literature, forum boards, blogs, etc. People who believe in God or in Jesus, but have gutted the supernatural living as though they are atheists in practice, but 'agnostic' in belief. One could be a Catholic Agnostic simply by 'believing' in a God, but not really believing the supernatural Mysteries of Faith without doubt. So I guess that was going through my head while during other stuff.

(1a)At the beginning of the second video at time ~ 00:41 Cardinal Pell vocalizes the fallacy of Dawkins of Agnostic/Atheistic Philosophy; which accepts only what is confined to sensory experience.
(1b)Pascendi under #6: "We begin, then, with the philosopher. Modernists place the foundation of religious philosophy in that doctrine which is called Agnosticism. According to this teaching human reason is confined entirely within the field of phenomena, that is to say, to things that are perceptible to the senses...from this it is inferred that God can never be the direct object of science, and that, as regards history, He must not be considered as an historical subject"
(1c)Which goes into your video embed Centro, where Cardinal Pell denies historical accuracy of Biblical creation of Adam and Eve. In other words, historical accounts in the Bible are now held up to 'question.' Interestingly, Dawkins attacks him for this hypocrisy because belief in Original Sin, the Fall, and the reason for Christ in Flesh and His Redeeming Sacrifice are central to Christology and Soteriology. And here, Cardinal Pell, blows it off as if it was no big thing. Which leads into...

Pascendi #18: "Hence in their books you find some things which might well be expressed by a Catholic, but in the next page you find other things which might have been dictated by a rationalist."

So no, it was not a pun but just what was running through my mind in terms of 'street' apologetics and where other people are coming from and how to better defend my position (ie looking more into matter/ anti-matter as it relates to the big-bang theory and the pros and cons against -- since that appears where Dawkins was weak at defending)
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: The Penny Catechism on July 07, 2014, 10:14:06 PM
Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: The Penny Catechism
That's Centro for that Video (Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal G. Pell including the 4/4 video snippets beyond the .....



I don't get it? Pun intended? :smirk:


My mistake on that typo. It should have read instead

Thank's Centro for that Video (not 'That's Centro...')



Agree with your point Matthew that Modernism shouldn't be referring to cell phones, an innovative technology, etc. leading to modern/Modernism being misconstrued for each other
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Nishant on July 08, 2014, 08:04:54 AM
The essence of Modernism is the evolution of dogma and the mutability of truth. Its acceptance is the end of all sanity and of all Christianity. Truth is no more substantially unchanging and time invariant but needs to be progressively modified as the centuries roll on. Faith is no more the assent of the intellect to truth believed on the authority of God who reveals, but a product of human conscience and subjective experience. Thus, objective truth is made to be of no account and error and heresy have just as much validity as the only true and saving faith. The Christian faith itself is not a revealed deposit complete and perfect in itself to be faithfully guarded but rather a product of human consciousness in perpetual flux to be perfected by human effort and suitably adapted and changed according to the needs of the times. God's existence itself is not demonstrable from creation, but is unknown and unknowable, so practical agnosticism is the result. This is the end of all reason and of all faith.

Tthe Popes have repeatedly counselled one sure antidote - the precision of Thomistic theology and scholastic philosophy, as a sure and indispensable foundation to master and on which to build - as among the most certain means of refuting this synthesis of all heresies, against ancient errors peddled in a new garb, as well as against the vacuous, imprecise and ambiguous terminology modernists often employ to promote their errors. That faithful sons of the Church must take particular care to master the teaching and philosophy of St. Thomas and that professors of theology take special care to inculcate it in seminarians has been repeatedly enjoined by the Popes. What St. Pius X said with perfect prescience regarding the neglect of St. Thomas came about after Vatican II.

Quote
certain persons persuaded themselves that they were acting in conformity to Our Will or at any rate not actively opposing it, in adopting indiscriminately and adhering to the philosophical opinions of any other Doctor of the School, even though such opinions were contrary to the principles of St. Thomas. They were greatly deceived. In recommending St. Thomas to Our subjects as supreme guide in the Scholastic philosophy, it goes without saying that Our intention was to be understood as referring above all to those principles upon which that philosophy is based as its foundation ... And rightly, because, if Catholic doctrine is once deprived of this strong bulwark, it is useless to seek the slightest assistance for its defence in a philosophy whose principles are either common to the errors of materialism, monism, pantheism, socialism and modernism, or certainly not opposed to such systems. The reason is that the capital theses in the philosophy of St. Thomas are not to be placed in the category of opinions capable of being debated one way or another, but are to be considered as the foundations upon which the whole science of natural and divine things is based; if such principles are once removed or in any way impaired, it must necessarily follow that students of the sacred sciences will ultimately fail to perceive so much as the meaning of the words in which the dogmas of divine revelation are proposed by the magistracy of the Church.


Fr. Garrigou Lagrange, before the crisis as we know it began, saw the roots of the crisis developing in the abandonment of Thomism. John Vennari has written some excellent articles on it.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 08, 2014, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: The Penny Catechism
Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: The Penny Catechism
That's Centro for that Video (Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal G. Pell including the 4/4 video snippets beyond the .....

I don't get it? Pun intended? :smirk:


No sir. After your video embed, Youtube displays the talk divided into 4 sections each running approximately 15 minutes

While multi-tasking and running errands, I found myself thinking or analyzing the talk with several considerations...and actually stopped what I was doing for a moment to open Pascendi when I got home to write down my thoughts for further inquiry


(1a)On the first video at time ~ 13:41 Dawkins (popularly known as an 'atheist') admits/doesn't deny that he is an Agnostic. He says: "I'm totally confident there is a God. I'm totally confident there isn't a God."
(1b)Pascendi under #6: "But how the Modernists make the transition from Agnosticism, which is a state of pure nescience, to scientific and historic Atheism, which is a doctrine of positive denial..."
(1c)Today one can easily google "Christian Agnostic" and find people who claim as such under literature, forum boards, blogs, etc. People who believe in God or in Jesus, but have gutted the supernatural living as though they are atheists in practice, but 'agnostic' in belief. One could be a Catholic Agnostic simply by 'believing' in a God, but not really believing the supernatural Mysteries of Faith without doubt. So I guess that was going through my head while during other stuff.

(1a)At the beginning of the second video at time ~ 00:41 Cardinal Pell vocalizes the fallacy of Dawkins of Agnostic/Atheistic Philosophy; which accepts only what is confined to sensory experience.
(1b)Pascendi under #6: "We begin, then, with the philosopher. Modernists place the foundation of religious philosophy in that doctrine which is called Agnosticism. According to this teaching human reason is confined entirely within the field of phenomena, that is to say, to things that are perceptible to the senses...from this it is inferred that God can never be the direct object of science, and that, as regards history, He must not be considered as an historical subject"
(1c)Which goes into your video embed Centro, where Cardinal Pell denies historical accuracy of Biblical creation of Adam and Eve. In other words, historical accounts in the Bible are now held up to 'question.' Interestingly, Dawkins attacks him for this hypocrisy because belief in Original Sin, the Fall, and the reason for Christ in Flesh and His Redeeming Sacrifice are central to Christology and Soteriology. And here, Cardinal Pell, blows it off as if it was no big thing. Which leads into...

Pascendi #18: "Hence in their books you find some things which might well be expressed by a Catholic, but in the next page you find other things which might have been dictated by a rationalist."

So no, it was not a pun but just what was running through my mind in terms of 'street' apologetics and where other people are coming from and how to better defend my position (ie looking more into matter/ anti-matter as it relates to the big-bang theory and the pros and cons against -- since that appears where Dawkins was weak at defending)



Thanks. I didn't get that chance to watch all the videos. I remember when it happened it made quite a few headlines. At that point, and even much before that, I remember thinking how impossible it would be for anyone to deny that there are certainly Modernists in the Vatican. Why would anyone want to be in communion with this primate?
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: TKGS on July 08, 2014, 11:33:24 AM
Quote from: Matthew
The purpose of language is to convey ideas and be understood.


And, in a quiet corner in a Vatican office, a lowly priest is smacking his head right now saying to himself, "So that's the problem!  I thought the purpose of language was to obfuscate!  This changes everything! :thinking: We'll have to go back and re-write everything since 1958."
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: The Penny Catechism on July 08, 2014, 11:39:00 AM
Quote from: Centroamerica
Thanks. I didn't get that chance to watch all the videos. I remember when it happened it made quite a few headlines. At that point, and even much before that, I remember thinking how impossible it would be for anyone to deny that there are certainly Modernists in the Vatican. Why would anyone want to be in communion with this primate?


Centro., great point and observation

It's like one can know the definition of Modernism and know of Pascendi (I'm alluding to the Prelates/ Religious in Rome) and yet demonstrate Modernism themselves.

At least for me, that is what caught my attention in the series of videos. In terms of what one believes about Christ (Christology) affects what you believe about salvation (Soteriology). And arguably vice versa. Tricky in that a subtle heretical belief over time has a trajectory leading towards an unknowing heretical viewpoint on how salvation works (unknowing to the adherent).

To me, this is one way a person in Rome can be a Modernist (not know it themselves) and yet have many followers.

In terms of how I'm looking at it; yesterdays' heresies repackaged today have their own particular "signature" with its final implication and conclusion being an opportunity to easily see it. Which leads into...

There being a difference between what a heretic says and what he claims his position is -- and from what actually is the endpoint of his position. The final implication and conclusion being a different result from what he intended.

For example, Arius in his writings believed and held the position that Christ was immutable, but his opponents (the Church) replied that his position was incoherent. That what followed from his position is actually heretical. And although Arius thought he wasn't being heretical, he was wrong.

In Arius' case, the Church made a distinction between what he affirmed and what he was accused of affirming. That the natural implication of his position was heretical regardless of whether Arius wanted this implication or not.

It's this general lack of knowledge of specific heresies of yesterday and what their final implications are on one's overall belief that is one of the several hurdles to see Modernism in plain sight --- which goes back to your point towards the Modernism in Rome.


 
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 08, 2014, 12:18:25 PM
Let's just hope trickster reads this Penny Catechism and gives it some thought regarding his position and his questions on Modernism.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: The Penny Catechism on July 08, 2014, 12:23:59 PM
Quote from: The Penny Catechism
For example, Arius in his writings believed and held the position that Christ was immutable, but his opponents (the Church) replied that his position was incoherent. That what followed from his position is actually heretical. And although Arius thought he wasn't being heretical, he was wrong.

In Arius' case, the Church made a distinction between what he affirmed and what he was accused of affirming. That the natural implication of his position was heretical regardless of whether Arius wanted this implication or not.


to clarify the above --

Arius believed he held the non-heretical position (ie Christ immutable), but the Church contradicted him by alluding that from his writings, this position (his claim of adhereing to a non-heretical viewpoint) can't be what followed....
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: donkath on July 09, 2014, 12:21:13 AM
Quote from: Centroamerica
Let's just hope trickster reads this Penny Catechism and gives it some thought regarding his position and his questions on Modernism.


http://www.magnificatpress.com/pdf/Penny.pdf
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 09, 2014, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Cantarella
A good reminder for all here present:

Quote from: Pius X


THE OATH AGAINST MODERNISM

 Given by His Holiness St. Pius X September 1, 1910.

 To be sworn to by all clergy, pastors, confessors, preachers, religious superiors, and professors in philosophical-theological seminaries.

 I . . . . firmly embrace and accept each and every definition that has been set forth and declared by the unerring teaching authority of the Church, especially those principal truths which are directly opposed to the errors of this day. And first of all, I profess that God, the origin and end of all things, can be known with certainty by the natural light of reason from the created world (see Rom. 1:90), that is, from the visible works of creation, as a cause from its effects, and that, therefore, his existence can also be demonstrated: Secondly, I accept and acknowledge the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and I hold that these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time. Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical' misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord.

 Furthermore, with due reverence, I submit and adhere with my whole heart to the condemnations, declarations, and all the prescripts contained in the encyclical Pascendi and in the decree Lamentabili, especially those concerning what is known as the history of dogmas. I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion. I also condemn and reject the opinion of those who say that a well-educated Christian assumes a dual personality-that of a believer and at the same time of a historian, as if it were permissible for a historian to hold things that contradict the faith of the believer, or to establish premises which, provided there be no direct denial of dogmas, would lead to the conclusion that dogmas are either false or doubtful. Likewise, I reject that method of judging and interpreting Sacred Scripture which, departing from the tradition of the Church, the analogy of faith, and the norms of the Apostolic See, embraces the misrepresentations of the rationalists and with no prudence or restraint adopts textual criticism as the one and supreme norm. Furthermore, I reject the opinion of those who hold that a professor lecturing or writing on a historico-theological subject should first put aside any preconceived opinion about the supernatural origin of Catholic tradition or about the divine promise of help to preserve all revealed truth forever; and that they should then interpret the writings of each of the Fathers solely by scientific principles, excluding all sacred authority, and with the same liberty of judgment that is common in the investigation of all ordinary historical docuмents.

 Finally, I declare that I am completely opposed to the error of the modernists who hold that there is nothing divine in sacred tradition; or what is far worse, say that there is, but in a pantheistic sense, with the result that there would remain nothing but this plain simple fact-one to be put on a par with the ordinary facts of history-the fact, namely, that a group of men by their own labor, skill, and talent have continued through subsequent ages a school begun by Christ and his apostles. I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles. The purpose of this is, then, not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of each age; rather, that the absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different, may never be understood in any other way.

 I promise that I shall keep all these articles faithfully, entirely, and sincerely, and guard them inviolate, in no way deviating from them in teaching or in any way in word or in writing. Thus I promise, this I swear, so help me God ...


Yes, we must always speak about the heresy Modernism (capital M) when we use that word. If you want to criticize the modern world or something, use some other term. There is no other "modernism" properly called aside from the heresy known by that name.

Having a cell phone is not "modernism" or "a modernism". That's would be a foolish abuse of language. The purpose of language is to convey ideas and be understood.


Actually, there is another 'modernism' properly called aside from the heresy.

For example, anyone can find a furniture store in Sherman Oaks or Pasadena, CA, called "Modernism (http://www.modernismfurniture.com/)."  

It takes no special talent to drive south down Woodman Avenue from Van Nuys, approaching Ventura Boulevard, and look over your shoulder to the left to see the store front in all its glory:  "MODERNISM Furniture."  If you don't believe me, check it out using your favorite search engine.  Or write them a letter asking for some information.  You'll be pleased to find they are quite nice.  That's how they stay in business.

Modernism Furniture
13641 Ventura Boulevard
Sherman Oaks, CA 91423-3701

(http://www.modernismfurniture.com/image/37476576_scaled_501x237.jpg)
Modernism Furniture opened its doors in 1988 to offer customers quality service and flexibility in customization. Now, with 20 years of experience, we still continue to offer our expert advice and top-tier furniture at great prices.


Quote from: the linked website

Please visit our furniture store in Sherman Oaks & Pasadena, California or call (866) 626-5620 or (818)981-3757

Furniture Store * Contempory * Plasma TV Stands * Leather * Sectionals * Mattress  * Chaise Lounges * Beds * Entertainment Centers * Tables * Chairs  



They sell furniture that they like to have customers think is styled after the Modernism school of architecture (http://architecture.about.com/od/20thcenturytrends/ig/Modern-Architecture/Modernism.htm).  Their customers are largely ignorant that Modernism is a defined heresy, but even if you were to tell them so, they wouldn't likely care one little whit about it.  They're in another reality from the one in which you and I abide.  Most of them are outside the Church where there is no salvation, but some are invincibly ignorant of the importance of Church doctrine.   Go figure.

Here is a photo of one architectural example:

(http://0.tqn.com/d/architecture/1/S/V/K/cornell9170006.jpg)
The Herbert F. Johnson Museum of Art at Cornell University is a Modernist building by I.M. Pei.

Quote from: the linked site

Modernist architecture emphasizes function. It attempts to provide for specific needs rather than imitate nature. The roots of Modernism may be found in the work of Berthold Luberkin (1901-1990), a Russian architect who settled in London and founded a group called Tecton. The Tecton architects believed in applying scientific, analytical methods to design. Their stark buildings ran counter to expectations and often seemed to defy gravity.


Modernist architecture can express a number of stylistic ideas, including:

    Structuralism
    Constructivism
    Formalism
    Bauhaus
    The International Style
    De Stijl
    Desert Modernism
    Brutalism
    Minimalism

Modernist architecture has these features:

    Little or no ornamentation
    Factory-made parts
    Man-made materials such as metal and concrete
    Emphasis on function
    Rebellion against traditional styles

For examples of Modernism in architecture, see works by:

    Rem Koolhaas
    I.M. Pei
    Le Corbusier
    Philip Johnson
    Mies van der Rohe

In the later decades of the twentieth century, designers rebelled against the rational Modernism and a variety of post modern styles evolved. Examples of post modern architecture include:

    Postmodernism
    High Tech
    Organic
    Deconstructivism
    Metabolism







.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 09, 2014, 11:42:16 AM
.

Overall, members have done a pretty good job of answering the troll, trickster, regarding this question he has (which he isn't really interested in having answered).  Centroamerica (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=32632&min=0#p2), for example, has given a link to the most excellent book A Catechism of Modernism, by Rev. Lemius.  This fine manual of comprehension explains Pascendi so you can actually understand it, because Pascendi is not casual or "light" reading.   Fr. Lemius was a personal friend of the saintly Cardinal Merry del Val, who actually deserves to be canonized, in contrast to certain others who have been, lately.  That's Modernism in action BTW.



I must say that one item omitted is the most prominent aspect of Modernism, which explains its roots and its essence.  This is missing from the 35 posts prior to this one.  




Where does Modernism come from, and of what does it consist?

Modernism comes from the proposition stated by the philosopher:  "God is immanent."  In this one sentence is the whole sap and substance of what it consists.

Several entire books could be written on that one theme.

.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 11, 2014, 06:30:19 AM
.



(http://www.onestoppest.com/termitecontrol/cricket.jpg)

CRICKETS

(http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server700/236bd/products/94/images/229/small_crickets__02011.1387939648.1280.1280.jpg)



 


 :smirk:





.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: The Penny Catechism on July 11, 2014, 11:19:08 AM
Neil, what's your point, other than being a contrarian who just want to argue and debate for the sake of debating....and arguing?
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Centroamerica on July 11, 2014, 11:48:50 AM
I think he is just trying to figure out what happened to trickster. There is no doubt that he is a troll of some kind, and not only that but he seems to have abandoned his post.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 12, 2014, 04:20:16 PM
Quote from: The Penny Catechism
Neil, what's your point, other than being a contrarian who just want [sic] to argue and debate for the sake of debating....and arguing?


How many points would you like?  

I realize you might expect there to be JUST ONE point to a member's posts, but when it's a topic as diffuse as Modernism, there can be hundreds of points.  


Maybe you didn't read my posts, or if you did, you can't figure out which one point to settle on.  

Here's a suggestion for you.  Do you know where Modernism comes from?  Do you understand this question?  Can you define the word, "immanent?"  

If you think you can, then you should be able to understand this post (but if you in fact cannot define it, then that explains why you can't see any 'point' in it):

Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

Overall, members have done a pretty good job of answering the troll, trickster, regarding this question he has (which he isn't really interested in having answered).  Centroamerica (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=32632&min=0#p2), for example, has given a link to the most excellent book A Catechism of Modernism, by Rev. Lemius.  This fine manual of comprehension explains Pascendi so you can actually understand it, because Pascendi is not casual or "light" reading.   Fr. Lemius was a personal friend of the saintly Cardinal Merry del Val, who actually deserves to be canonized, in contrast to certain others who have been, lately.  That's Modernism in action BTW.



I must say that one item omitted is the most prominent aspect of Modernism, which explains its roots and its essence.  This is missing from the 35 posts prior to this one.  




Where does Modernism come from, and of what does it consist?

Modernism comes from the proposition stated by the philosopher:  

"God is immanent."  

In this one sentence is the whole sap and substance of what it consists.

Several entire books could be written on that one theme.

.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 12, 2014, 04:42:04 PM
Quote from: Centroamerica
I think he is just trying to figure out what happened to trickster. There is no doubt that he is a troll of some kind, and not only that but he seems to have abandoned his post.


I find it noteworthy that he started this thread 5 days ago, making 7 posts in the first 13 hours, and then has disappeared -- but only from this thread, which he started, because, since that time on July 7th (his last post here) he has made 24 more posts on a wide range of threads from soup to nuts.  

The first reasonable observation of this behavior is that he must not want to learn anything about Modernism, even though his thread title and OP asks a question about it.  That is, that he asked a question, manifestly without wanting to be told the answer, which, BTW is evidenced from his subsequent 6 posts, as well.  

It would seem that when he found out that other members were wise to his fake ruse, he just ran away.  This is a typical reaction of Modernists, to any discussion of Modernism.  In fact, not only does Pascendi explain this, but in case you don't quite comprehend the message, Fr. Lemius devotes several questions in his excellent book to this theme, for your edification -- that is, if you are truly interested in learning something, which, the OP author apparently is not.

.
Title: Modernism - What Part is Condemned by the Church?
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 12, 2014, 04:47:49 PM
.

The encyclical and the Catechism on it were both written a century ago, but they are MORE valid and appropriate to our time than they ever have been before, even at the time of their authorship.  

.