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Author Topic: Modern Science and the SSPX  (Read 28395 times)

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Offline ihsv

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Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
« Reply #120 on: October 20, 2018, 05:23:28 PM »
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  • The length of a day is not science, it's math and/or history, or a combination thereof.  The account of Genesis and the length of creation is ALSO a matter of HISTORY, not STRICTLY science.  The Church Fathers are called "fathers" because they learned directly from the Apostles.  We cannot sweep away their opinions on a whim.


    Banezian MUST sweep them aside, since his beliefs do not correspond to theirs.  In order to hold his modern, liberal views, he must minimize the fathers to make room for his novel interpretation of scripture.  Anyone who holds the same faith and interpretation of scriptures as that of the fathers is labeled a "fundamentalist" by him and Robinson.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #121 on: October 20, 2018, 05:24:12 PM »
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  • I point out to the board that you completely dodged the challenge.  

    Thank you for ADMITTING that your novelty originated in the 19th century, and therefore can NOT be considered as part of the deposit of faith.

    What you hold concerning Genesis was never held by Catholics prior to the 1800s.  It is new, it is a novelty, and on that score alone is to be rejected.

    I challenge you to find ONE father, ONE doctor, who shares your views on Genesis.
    Of course other interpretations of Genesis 1 were not held before the 19th century, because they didn’t have the science that we have. The theory of evolution had not been proposed and carbon dating was not discovered. They worked with what they had. I recommend Fr. Robinson’s series on Scripture and science
    https://therealistguide.com/blog/f/scripture-and-science-the-voices-of-authority-part-1
    https://therealistguide.com/blog/f/scripture-and-science-the-voices-of-authority-part-2
    https://therealistguide.com/blog/f/scripture-and-science-the-voices-of-authority-part-3
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #122 on: October 20, 2018, 05:24:29 PM »
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  • Since your and Fr. Robinson's ideas concerning the interpretation of Genesis are novelties, not seen in Catholic theology prior to the 19th Century, I challenge you to back up your interpretation of Genesis using the Fathers of the Church.  Your view is new, it is novel, and shows that you (and Father Robinson) have been infected by the liberalism that was slithering its way into the theology manuals of the last century and a half.  You will not find your interpretation of Genesis reflected in any of the writings of the fathers, doctors, popes, saints or councils.
    .
    Especially considering how modern scientists have been bowing and scraping to their idols:
    Charles Lyell and Charles Darwin, who were amateurs, btw.
    .
    The vast ages of the geological record are all based on conjecture and have no basis in fact.
    .
    We have clearly seen firsthand how strata forms in a matter of seconds, not hundreds of millions of years. 
    .
    Ice cores taken in Greenland have been presumed to have strata and layers that represent years, when it has been found to be otherwise.
    .
    The layers that theorists presume to be seasons or years turn out to be due to a change in wind direction, which can happen many times a day.
    .
    The same layers are observed in the built-up snowpack 2' thick on a car's windshield that was in a blizzard for ONE DAY. 
    .
    A 200' deep shaft in the Greenland icepack to uncover and retrieve a P-38 exposed the same strata that had been thought to be millennia.
    .
    But the P-38, found at the bottom, was known to have landed on the Greenland surface in 1943, not 2,000 BC.
    .
    Mt. St. Helens erupted just a few years ago and formed what appears to be identical strata indicating 20 million years, in ONE DAY. 
    .
    A seal's carcass washed up on a beach in Hawaii, with fresh meat stuck to the bones, obviously having recently died, perhaps one month.
    Sample bones were dried and sent to a lab for analysis.
    .
    The laboratory was not informed as to the condition of the carcass with fresh meat, and the results came back: 20,000 years old!
    .
    So much for the reliability of modern scientific dating of ancient fossils.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #123 on: October 20, 2018, 05:26:07 PM »
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  • .
    Of course other interpretations of Genesis 1 were not held before the 19th century, because they didn’t have the science that we have. The theory of evolution had not been proposed and carbon dating was not discovered.
    .
    .
    Carbon dating is fiction, and evolution is a fairy tale for grownups who refuse to grow up, like Banezian here.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #124 on: October 20, 2018, 05:42:22 PM »
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  • Of course other interpretations of Genesis 1 were not held before the 19th century, because they didn’t have the science that we have. The theory of evolution had not been proposed and carbon dating was not discovered. They worked with what they had. I recommend Fr. Robinson’s series on Scripture and science
    https://therealistguide.com/blog/f/scripture-and-science-the-voices-of-authority-part-1
    https://therealistguide.com/blog/f/scripture-and-science-the-voices-of-authority-part-2
    https://therealistguide.com/blog/f/scripture-and-science-the-voices-of-authority-part-3


    I have read Fr. Robinson's book.  In fact, I pretty much grew up with Fr. Paul.  We went to the same chapel and used to hang out a lot before he went off to the seminary.  I'm not impressed by him (for a variety of reasons) or his arguments. 

    So again, you ADMIT that your interpretation of Genesis is NOT of apostolic origin, that it was never held by the Fathers, and that it is new.

    Three solid reasons to reject it. 

    It takes a wicked amount of pride and arrogance to think you're smarter or know more than the Fathers. 
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #125 on: October 20, 2018, 05:49:01 PM »
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  • What, if anything, would you consider "proof" [of long-ages]?

    Give it you best shot Stan.  Knock it out of the park and we'll go from there.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #126 on: October 20, 2018, 05:52:03 PM »
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  • Quote
    Anyone who holds the same faith and interpretation of scriptures as that of the fathers is labeled a "fundamentalist" by him and Robinson.
    Right, the modernist tactic of calling orthodox catholics "antiquated" or "old fashioned", etc.  As if the Church needs "updating" to become more in line "with the times".

    The fact of the matter is that one cannot come up with a new interpretation of Scripture unless you have FACTS to back it up.  There are NO scientific facts to back up a re-definition of day or the idea that the creation days happened over millions of years.  In absence of these facts, the new interpretation is unnecessary and baseless.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #127 on: October 20, 2018, 05:55:38 PM »
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  • Quote
    What, if anything, would you consider "proof" [of long-ages]?
    If even HALF of modern science's fairy-tales regarding evolution were true, we'd have evidence we need.  But every proof they've offered (carbon dating, missing links, fossils, etc) are complete crap.  There's simply NO EVIDENCE that evolution happened.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #128 on: October 20, 2018, 05:58:44 PM »
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  • Give it you best shot Stan.  Knock it out of the park and we'll go from there.
    Better to get some principles agreed first. Do you think it is possible for natural science to "prove" anything? If you don't, there's no point discussing it.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #129 on: October 20, 2018, 06:00:57 PM »
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  • .
    Carbon dating is fiction, and evolution is a fairy tale for grownups who refuse to grow up, like Banezian here.

    Yes, carbon dating is pure crap.  I even saw an episode of the show "Ancient Aliens" where they destroyed carbon dating.

    PS -- I really do enjoy that show.  It's entertaining and informative.  Put aside the alien garbage, and they do a lot of good stuff with rejecting evolution and things like carbon dating.  They also expose how older civilizations were not a bunch of idiots but had very advance science and even technology.  Now, of course, their explanation is that "evolution is ridiculous, so aliens must have made human beings" ... without ever explaining who made the aliens.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #130 on: October 20, 2018, 06:09:12 PM »
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  • Sorry to interrupt this topic but the Forum should be reminded that AFTER the 1903 Conclave fiasco Pope Pius X appoints Cardinal Rampolla as Chmn of Pontifical Biblical Commission..... :fryingpan:

    Well, in that case, we could reject all opinions of the PBC since the chairman was a Freemason.   :laugh1:

    [you that I'm just yanking your chain]


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #131 on: October 20, 2018, 06:14:53 PM »
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  • Your Latin is better than mine.  Could you say if this is limiting permitted opinions to those already expressed by the Fathers?  I am not confident of my translation.

    IV. Utrum in interpretandis illis horum capitum locis, quos Patres et Doctores diverso modo intellexerunt, quin certi quippiam definitique tradiderint, liceat, salvo Ecclesiae iudicio servataque fidei analogia, eam quam quisque prudenter probaverit, sequi tuerique sententiam?
    Resp. Affirmative.

    I'm not understanding it that way.  I think that it's saying that, where the Fathers and Doctors didn't agree but had differing explanations, people could hold anything consistent with Church teaching and the Catholic principles of Scriptural interpretation ... including some new opinion not held before by the Church Fathers.  It's implicitly reaffirming the principle that we must hold to any interpretation unanimously held by the Fathers, but if they didn't agree unanimously, then it's no longer a rule that we must follow.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #132 on: October 20, 2018, 06:15:59 PM »
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  • Sungenis Is a ridiculous fundie who makes the Church look bad with his fundamentalism.

    Really?  I consider him to be a liberal.   :laugh1:

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #133 on: October 20, 2018, 06:17:46 PM »
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  • There is no conflict between modern science and orthodox Catholicism.

    Modern pseudo-science has an agenda ... to undermine belief in God, and is anything but "scientific" and objective.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Modern Science and the SSPX
    « Reply #134 on: October 20, 2018, 06:22:12 PM »
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  • I don't believe in evolution, but I won't condemn everyone who does. The Biblical Commission made it clear that Catholics could interpret days as periods of time. (And if anyone thinks the Biblical Commission can be easily dismissed, remember that Lamentabili was a decision of the Holy Office approved in forma specifica by St. Pius X, same as decisions of the Biblical Commission.)

    Furthermore, as to the claim that it's "modernist philosophy", most leading Thomists of the 20th century, including Garrigou-Lagrange, taught that some form of evolution from pre-existing matter was conceivable, within limits. Ott, another author trads should be familiar with, says "while the fact of the creation of man by God in the literal sense must be closely adhered to, in the question as to the mode and manner of the formation of the human body, an interpretation which diverges from the strict literal sense is, on weighty grounds, permissible." (Fundamentals, p95).

    What does a possible metaphorical use of the term "day" have to do with evolution?  Evolution is stupid and it undermines Catholic teaching.

    You can diverge from a strict literal sense only to the extent of understanding certain things metaphorically, not in dismissing them as false.

    It's a contradiction against Scripture to say that God created man from anything but the "clay of the earth".  To say that God created man from monkeys is heretical.  There's no way it can be reconciled with Scripture.