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Author Topic: Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:  (Read 16881 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2013, 05:30:57 PM »
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  • The really heartbreaking part is that next week we will have Fr Gerard Beck here.

    As I have stated before, he is (with the possible exception of Fr Therion Gaudray, or not) the finest priest I have ever known.

    I am at a loss as to understand how a man of his caliber came to accept authority over truth as the principle of unity in the new SSPX.

    Certainly he would object to that statement, but then we have the April 15 declaration which he apparently was ready to accept...

    We even named our 3rd boy after him.

    Almost certainly he will condemn me next week, perhaps not by name, but implicitly as part of the local resistance.

    It is not an easy thing for a man to hear himself condemned by those for which he has esteem.

    But I will say it again:

    None of my principles or positions have changed since when he was here as my pastor.

    So if we should now find ourselves on opposite sides of the fence, what is the explanation?

    Because I would not budge, I have become the enemy?

    My wife's heart is likewise broken.

    She would not have come to tradition, but for the influence of Fr Beck.

    Sigh..........

    It matters not.

    If I shall be cast out, at least on the day of judgment, I shall go before The Lord with a clean conscience, and say that I would not sacrifice principle for authority, and if I was wrong not to do so, then I was wrong in good faith.

    And if this shall befall my family, I will take solace in the words of our Lord:

    "No servant is greater than his master.  If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you."


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline John Grace

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #16 on: June 09, 2013, 05:50:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    The really heartbreaking part is that next week we will have Fr Gerard Beck here.

    As I have stated before, he is (with the possible exception of Fr Therion Gaudray, or not) the finest priest I have ever known.

    I am at a loss as to understand how a man of his caliber came to accept authority over truth as the principle of unity in the new SSPX.

    Certainly he would object to that statement, but then we have the April 15 declaration which he apparently was ready to accept...

    We even named our 3rd boy after him.

    Almost certainly he will condemn me next week, perhaps not by name, but implicitly as part of the local resistance.

    It is not an easy thing for a man to hear himself condemned by those for which he has esteem.

    But I will say it again:

    None of my principles or positions have changed since when he was here as my pastor.

    So if we should now find ourselves on opposite sides of the fence, what is the explanation?

    Because I would not budge, I have become the enemy?

    My wife's heart is likewise broken.

    She would not have come to tradition, but for the influence of Fr Beck.

    Sigh..........

    It matters not.

    If I shall be cast out, at least on the day of judgment, I shall go before The Lord with a clean conscience, and say that I would not sacrifice principle for authority, and if I was wrong not to do so, then I was wrong in good faith.

    And if this shall befall my family, I will take solace in the words of our Lord:

    "No servant is greater than his master.  If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you."



    I will certainly pray for you all.


    Offline Machabees

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #17 on: June 09, 2013, 06:16:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Well, it was so predictable that Kansas City would use the opportunity of our current pastor's vacation to send an accordista to rally the troops, that some of us considered recording the sermon today (knowing it would be a barn-burner), but unfortunately, I am not aware of anyone actually having followed through with a recording.

    If such a recording does come to surface, I will let you know, but until then, I supply these bullet points:

    1) Fr. Rutledge states he is not undercutting the authority of our pastor (Fr. Steven Webber) by delivering such a sermon, because he was specifically sent by Fr. Rostand to deliver it;

    2) The SSPX has not changed in the last 4 years (He even defied, rhetorically, anyone to cite a single change);

    3) There is no such thing as the resistance, because there is nothing to resist.  Therefore, he will call us dissidents;

    4) The secrecy in which the resistance has been working is the method of the devil;

    5) The resistance are akin to Judas; they are treasonous; they are hypocrites to bite the hand that feeds them, then present themselves at the communion rail;

    6) He recommends the Kansas City conference of Fr. Thiemann to dispel all the resistance arguments and give you the facts;

    7) Bishop Williamson is a liberal for his thought that authority is so crippled by the minds of modern men, that hierarchy should be abandoned;

    8) Bishop Williamson is a liberal for saying both sides of an argument should be considered before concluding as to which is the truth, because we all know the voice of truth when we hear it;

    9) All the arguments of the resistance are based on misinformation;

    10) It is ridiculous to oppose talking to Rome about a deal; even Archbishop Lefebvre in the 1970s evinced his desire to be united to Rome;

    11) Archbishop Lefebvre was criticized for his desire to be united to Rome by the sedevacantists back then;

    12) All the groups that have left the SSPX have disintegrated, and the same can be expected for the resistance;

    13) Nothing in the seminary formation has changed; we still have the same courses;

    14) I preach the same sermons I preached 4 years ago;

    Dear reader, there was much more than this, but I am working from memory; since several other parishioners from St. Paul frequent this website, you may feel free to interject/correct/or add as needed.

    These are my brief responses:

    1) If it is true, as Fr. Rutledge says, that he was sent to deliver this sermon by Fr. Rostand, then it heavily implies that Kansas City feels the people of St. Paul need to hear something they are not getting from their regular pastor.

    This may also explain why we got a milder anti-resistance sermon the last time Fr. Webber went on vacation as well.

    Funny thing is, our regular pastor is no resistance supporter, but openly denounces Vatican II on a regular basis.  

    Apparently even this much is taboo in the neo-SSPX (and perfectly aligns with Fr. Girouard's recent bombshell revelation of Fr. Wegner's hiring of a Dutch PR campaign to remake the public image of the SSPX; more on that later).

    Kansas City is misplaying this hand: They are going to end up making a resistance priest out of Fr. Webber, despite Fr. Webber's aversion to the resistance!

    2) A book could be written citing all the changes to the SSPX in the last 4 years, contrary to the baseless assertion of Fr. Rutledge (which counts on the ignorance of the laity in order to have them swallow this whopper; remember: stay off the internet!  And apparently most have).  

    On the chance Fr. Rutledge's baseless assertion could gain traction because of the sheeple's refusal to inform themselves, I will begin building a Compendium of Changes in the SSPX since 2000; look for it on this website in a couple weeks.

    Meanwhile, here are a few changes from the SSPX that even the most willfully blind will have trouble side-stepping:

    A) The 2012 General Chapter Statement contradicts that of 2006, by allowing for a practical agreement without first settling the doctrinal issues;

    B) The contradiction of Archbishop Lefebvre's post-1988 consecration position with regard to relations with Rome, highlighted in the oft-cited 1988 Fideliter interview, that there be no agreement with Rome before Rome's conversion to tradition;

    C) The continual contradictions of Bishop Fellay himself:

    In 2003 (see Letter #63), Campos was suicidal for coming to an agreement with Rome;

    In 2012 (see March 2012 Cor Unum) he tried to sell a deal to the priests by telling them the situation in Rome had changed to such a degree, it required a new position/response from the SSPX;

    Then after seeing himself snubbed by Rome, and a deal out of reach for the moment with Francis coming to the papacy, he tells us (see Letter #85) that nothing in Rome has changed at all, and we must continue the fight.  

    Anyone familiar with Talleyrand?  He had an uncanny ability to see which way momentum and events were heading, and make sure he ended up on the winning side.

    3) Since the examples in #2 above serve as a refutation of this claim as well, I will let it pass, except to observe that Archbishop Lefebvre was also called a dissident by Rome, for refusal to submit to modernism and modernist superiors.  

    4) I found this the most hypocritical statement of the entire sermon, in light of all the secret dealings and negotiations between Rome/Menzingen.  As an afterthought, I will have to add that to the list of changes in the SSPX: Whereas Bishop Fellay effectively told concerned laity to go bug-off because it was none of our business, Archbishop Lefebvre was always very open about his dealings with Rome, and said the faithful had a strict right to know that their priests were not modernists.  

    5) On the one hand, this comment seems to have been designed to shame resistance communicants away from receiving Communion (Great priest, eh?).

    On the other hand, they see the traitors as the ones who will not go along with their marketing revolution designed to get a deal.  

    In 16th century England, they would have sided with Henry VIII, and made the same accusation against St. Thomas.

    But the interesting thing as that Fr. Rutledge's definition of treason seems to be determined by a person's fidelity to authority, not principles.

    He seems not to realize (being charitable) this itself is how revolution is facilitated, and he is one facilitating it.

    Those of us who have rightly kept our gaze fixed at the level of principle (like Archbishop Lefebvre in the 1988 Fideliter interview!) have become immovable, and like the old SSPX, are a thorn in the side of Menzingen.

    No, Fr. Rutledge.  If you want to look at traitors, ask yourself who has betrayed the 1988 position of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    6) Another hypocrisy, because the Fr. Thiemann conference basically explained why a deal with Rome would be good; apparently, the mindless troops of Menzingen could not keep up with the latest spin coming from Switzerland, because Fr. Thiemann's April 15 conference was contradicted by Bishop Fellay's April 17 Letter #85, in which he says nothing in Rome has changed, and we must hold the course!

    The troubling issue here is that this mindlessness implies a desire to back the general regardless of what he says.

    Obedience is superior to truth, and is also apparently independent of it.

    It matters not whether Menzingen contradicts itself 50 times: We will back the latest position regardless of truth or consequences.

    "We have always been at war with Eurasia!"

    7) I personally disagree with Bishop Williamson's strategy of the loose confederation.  But Fr. Rutledge has misunderstood the strategy, if in it he sees an implicit acceptance of democracy, egalitarianism, or equality, or some other liberal principle.

    8) Who can hear this, and not suspect the desire to keep the laity stupid and uninformed?  Don't go read the arguments of the resistance, because it is the devil!  Yet, whatever happened to "thee truth will set you free?"  If it is true, as Fr. Rutledge says, that the people know the truth when they hear it, then why is he so scared that they should be exposed to resistance arguments?  Menzingen should triumph easily, should it not?

    9) Yet not a single resistance argument was cited for rebuttal.  One suspects the intent to discredit without entering into debate.  Why?  Because debate would bring the very issues to surface that Kansas City wants to dismiss a priori as misinformation.  

    Meanwhile, the sheeple will make a show of loyalty by outdoing each other in their ignorance on the issues.  

    Mission accomplished.

    10) This is dishonesty.  Archbishop Lefebvre negotiated with Rome for decades.  Yes.  But after the 1988 consecrations, he no longer needed approval from Rome in order to perpetuate tradition, and therefore changed his approach with regard to them.

    That position, laid out in the 1988 Fideliter interview said no agreement without conversion the of Rome.

    Talks were useless (his words).

    So to give examples of Archbishop Lefebvre's willingness to talk and negotiate with Rome from the 1970s as proof that there is nothing wrong with Bishop Fellay doing the same in 2000-2013 is deceptive.

    11) The tired implication being that thee resistance are closet sedevacantists today?

    Or was it just an example which tried to say that there will always be some malcontents opposed to a deal, just as they were opposed to Archbishop Lefebvre talking to Rome back in the 1970s?

    If the latter, then I defer to my answer above in #10.

    12) More deception!

    The groups that left the SSPX and later disintegrated did so not because they left the SSPX, but because they went to Rome!

    And now you would have us stay quiet and back a course (laid out in the March 20112 Cor Unum) that would lead us to the same disintegration?

    And if we refuse to disintegrate ourselves, we are rebels motivated by misinformation and the devil?

    13) Really?

    You may still have the same courses and books.

    Tell me: Do you still have the same spiritual conferences and sermons?

    When I was in the seminary, I heard sermon after sermon, and conference after conference against modernism, Vatican II, the sellout of Campos, etc.

    You are telling me you still have all that?

    It would seem to contradict the PR firm Bishop Fellay and Fr. Wegner hired to re-brand the SSPX, the primary characteristic of which is the removal of combativeness and opposition to Rome/Vatican II/Modernism in order to gain worldly approval (and the good will of Rome?)

    Additionally, the faithful have noticed this lack of combativeness in the priests ordained since Bishop Williamson's transfer.

    Sermons on the virtues, but rarely anything against Vatican II.

    Fr. Girouard's revelation that Menzingen hired a PR firm which advised him to quit preaching against Rome/Vatican II, and that this course has been executed (as admitted by Fr. Wegner to Fr. Girouard), seems to contradict your statement that the formation is the same as it has ever been.

    If so, it could only be so despite the branding campaign paid for by Menzingen, which does not seem likely.

    14) Related to my answer above:

    What kind of sermons did you preach then and now?

    Did you indite Rome, condemn modernism, and preach against Vatican II regularly 4 years ago?

    The answer to #13 above makes that seem unlikely, and so you can honestly say that you have not had to change at all n the last 4 years.

    Problem is, your whole formation was designed to make sure you were not like the Bishop Williamson priests, who railed against such things.

    PS to Cathinfo readers:

    Fr Webber will still be on vacation next week, so be prepared for more!


    Very good analysis Sean.  There are a lot of good points to meditate on in there...

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #18 on: June 09, 2013, 08:34:52 PM »
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  • An SSPX priest just said to me:

    "We'll, why don't you just talk to Fr Beck then?"

    Answer:

    1) Do you really think there could be any beneficial outcome to such an exchange?

    2) Better from my perspective, out of esteem for him, to retain any sense of amicability.

    3) To me, this is like the stories of the War Between the States, where father and son found themselves on opposite sides of the Mason Dixon;

    4) I know Fr. Beck, and he is not going to relinquish his position because of anything I could demonstrate to him;

    5) He knows the same of me;

    6) No, I would rather retain the friendship than pursue a pointless course which would taint even that.

    7) It is for that reason I have not attempted contact with him since just after the Letter of the 3 Bishops came out.

    8) I am guessing he understands this.

    9) I hope you will too.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline magdalena

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #19 on: June 09, 2013, 08:58:08 PM »
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  • Father Thierry Gaudray is one of my favorite priests too.  I wonder where he stands in this?  Do you think perhaps that he was among the 37?  
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42


    Offline magdalena

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #20 on: June 09, 2013, 09:44:48 PM »
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  • With regards to the "sermon"....  :sad:

    Sorry, that's all I have for now.  
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42

    Offline hugeman

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #21 on: June 09, 2013, 10:27:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I heard today at Mass that Fr. Rostand will say Mass at our Chapel in two weeks. I wonder what his sermon will be about.


    Put your recorders on, and make sure your batteries are fresh! Eveytime they open their mouths, real beauties tumble out! He's the guy who swore up and down that " Rome isn't asking us for anything"; " Rome wants us as we are!" ; " Only Fellay has the grace of state to decide these matters."

        What he meant, of course, is that only Fellay is sneaky enough to arrange a deal with Rome by deceiving them into thinking we  all love the novusordo, AND deceiving SSPX priests into thinking we are fighting against the horrible  novus ordo bastard mass.
       What he meant , of course, is that Rome isn't asking Fellay (or Rostand, or LeRoux, or Schmidberger, et al) to give up anything-- because they had already checked out of tradition and joined the new conciliar church in their hearts back in the late 1990's, as they were playing in the GREC garden of delights! They had already committed the adultery of their faith, they were just waiting to be brought into the harlot's chambers! Ratzinger KNEW that Fellay had his lieutenant's working with, and even coordinating GREC's program to bring all the so-called "traditionalist" groups back into Rome. Ratzinger, Hoyo's, Lavada all knew that the senior SSPX management was pushing hard to re-join rome, at all costs, and so all they had to do was come up with an agreement that was, on the surface, acceptable to the Jєωs(controlling the vatican), the masons ( you remember them, right Bishop Fellay?), the leftist bishops  (, like call me whore-hey Brogoglio),and the traditionalist faithful.
        They have now supervised the destruction of the SSPX-- they have lost almost one hundred of the best of their priests; they have muzzled their remaining bishops; they lost the only bishop that had the brains and the guts to fight the Vatican Council false religion; They have jumped into bed with the Rothschilds to get money to finance a grand seminary so they could train sodomites and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs from the novus ordo conciliar church; they have lied about the archbishop's warnings to them to not deal with Rome until Rome returns to the true faith; and they have deceived their own faithful , telling them they were not trying to obtain an agreement, even while at the very moment they had sent their doctrinal promises (doctrinal declaration) to Rome specifically for the intention of obtaining an agreement!
        And, because they now all belong to the mutual adoration and adulation society, they all trot out and declare how great each other is, how prudent and perfect they all are, to "re-package " and "re-cast" the SSPX in the new world vision, and to exclude any "hardliners" trained by the Archbishop or attentive to his teachings.
       So, keep your batteries fresh--it could be a doozy!
         

    Offline rlee

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #22 on: June 09, 2013, 10:59:33 PM »
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  • Sean Johnson said:

    "A book could be written citing all the changes to the SSPX in the last 4 years, contrary to the baseless assertion of Fr. Rutledge (which counts on the ignorance of the laity in order to have them swallow this whopper; remember: stay off the internet!  And apparently most have). "

    Indeed, Sean, a book should be written. DR. WHITE CAN YOU HEAR US!


    Offline pbax

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #23 on: June 10, 2013, 12:22:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson


    2) The SSPX has not changed in the last 4 years (He even defied, rhetorically, anyone to cite a single change);


    Then why, oh why was the reasons for hiring a PR company in the bloomin first place
    1) The SSPX didn't need to change or

    2) The SSPX haven't initiated the changes of the PR company

    If it is the first point then what a waste thousands of dollars and that in its self is not a wise PR Bishop fellay
    And if  the second we all better pray harder

    Offline magdalena

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #24 on: June 10, 2013, 05:42:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: magdalena
    With regards to the "sermon"....  :sad:

    Sorry, that's all I have for now.  


    I guess when you consider that Father Rutledge is 30 years old, has only been a priest for four years, was put into the exalted position of bursar after only two years and is surrounded by all of Bishop Fellay's men, what can one expect?  This considered, he has been known for his short, eloquent and charitable sermons.  What happened?  Once again...  :sad:
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42

    Offline cathman7

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #25 on: June 10, 2013, 08:19:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Well, it was so predictable that Kansas City would use the opportunity of our current pastor's vacation to send an accordista to rally the troops, that some of us considered recording the sermon today (knowing it would be a barn-burner), but unfortunately, I am not aware of anyone actually having followed through with a recording.
    ......



    Good work Sean. There is something terribly wrong with the SSPX. It has certainly lost its edge. Accommodation to the world is the name of the game.

    Priests who were at the forefront of critiquing the modern world have either been muzzled, placed in positions of very little influence, or have left the SSPX.



    Offline s2srea

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #26 on: June 10, 2013, 08:48:02 AM »
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  • Sean Johnson- Please be assured of my prayers for you and your family. This crisis clearly affects some more than others. Thank you very much for relaying the information you heard and passing it on. And though it is self-beneficial, your posting of the counter-arguments is also very beneficial to read as well!

    What would be excellent is a debate between a Resistance priest and NeoSSPX preiest.

    Wait- even better- between +Fellay and +Williamson!

     :popcorn:

    Offline Incredulous

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #27 on: June 10, 2013, 03:49:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I heard today at Mass that Fr. Rostand will say Mass at our Chapel in two weeks. I wonder what his sermon will be about.



    Like the cowboys of old,  challenge him to meet in the coffee room after Mass.

    Then, with everyone watching, you can both square-off and see who is fastest to draw their tape recorder
    .




    Then... that's when you ask him: "Father, please explain to us, where in Church tradition are holy Apostolic orders market branded ?"
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Frances

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #28 on: June 10, 2013, 04:04:43 PM »
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  • FYI-  Dueling, viewing a duel, or facilitating a duel is "excommunicable."
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline Matthew

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    Militant Anti-Resistance Sermon in St Paul, MN:
    « Reply #29 on: June 10, 2013, 04:06:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Frances
    FYI-  Dueling, viewing a duel, or facilitating a duel is "excommunicable."


    Not if the "gun" is a tape recorder. Then it's completely sinless.
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