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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59258 times)

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Offline Meg

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #495 on: March 25, 2023, 09:21:31 AM »
He would be called a non-Catholic.

How is it that a non-Catholic can receive the sacrament of penance? Is there a specific church teaching which addresses this? And no, I'm not talking about Fr. Kramer's writings. 

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #496 on: March 26, 2023, 06:01:15 PM »
Fr. Kramer would do better to explain to those who've fallen into his same error, how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.

Great point Stubborn.  What your comment reveals is that there is a difference between someone who has been baptized in the Church, or received into the Church after baptism, and a person that has never been a Catholic.   If a person that has been received into the Church falls into heresy, all he has to do is confess it to be reconciled with the Church.  The only exception is one who was declared a heretic by the Church.  In that case, he would also need to have the declaration lifted.

As long as the Catholic remains in external union with the Church, he remains a true member of the Church (one opinion), or at least a member in appearance only (second opinion). Those who hold the second opinion (e.g., Suarez, Cajetan, Franzeline, John of St. Thomas) admit that being a member in appearance only suffices to hold office in the Church and to retain jurisdiction. The point being, all admit that if a cleric falls into the sin of formal heresy and loses the faith, they will retain their office and jurisdiction as long as they remain externally united to the Church.


Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #497 on: March 26, 2023, 06:20:03 PM »
How is it that a non-Catholic can receive the sacrament of penance? Is there a specific church teaching which addresses this? And no, I'm not talking about Fr. Kramer's writings.

In Treatise 3, Book 2, Chapter 2, Article 3 (Reasons that Separate a Baptized Person from the Body of the Church), Thesis 26, Salaverri states the following in Sacrae Theologiae Summa:

"A heretic, apostate and schismatic by the fact itself; and a person excommunicated by legitimate authority are separated from the body of the Church."

In Paragraph 1052 under Thesis 26, he states the following in regards to the opinion of theologians:

"That formal and manifest heretics are not members of the body of the Church can well be said to be the unanimous opinion among Catholics."

In Paragraph 1056 under Thesis and titled "Doctrine of the Church", he states the following:

"Part 1 is implicitly defined by the Council of Florence in the Decree for the Jacobites: D 1351. But concerning heretics and apostates we deduce our doctrine also from the formula of faith of the 'Clemens Trinitas,' from canon 23 of Lateran Council II, and from the Bull of Pius IX 'Ineffabilis Deus': D 74, 718, 2804."

Part 1 is in reference to the first part of Thesis 26, which is "a heretic, apostate, and schismatic by the fact itself" (are separated from the Body of the Church).

If one is separated from the Body of the Church, then he is a non-Catholic.  How a non-Catholic who was formerly Catholic receives the Sacrament of Penance is that he renounces his heresy in the Sacrament of Penance and follows the direction of the priest.


Offline Meg

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #498 on: March 26, 2023, 07:00:20 PM »
In Treatise 3, Book 2, Chapter 2, Article 3 (Reasons that Separate a Baptized Person from the Body of the Church), Thesis 26, Salaverri states the following in Sacrae Theologiae Summa:

"A heretic, apostate and schismatic by the fact itself; and a person excommunicated by legitimate authority are separated from the body of the Church."

In Paragraph 1052 under Thesis 26, he states the following in regards to the opinion of theologians:

"That formal and manifest heretics are not members of the body of the Church can well be said to be the unanimous opinion among Catholics."

In Paragraph 1056 under Thesis and titled "Doctrine of the Church", he states the following:

"Part 1 is implicitly defined by the Council of Florence in the Decree for the Jacobites: D 1351. But concerning heretics and apostates we deduce our doctrine also from the formula of faith of the 'Clemens Trinitas,' from canon 23 of Lateran Council II, and from the Bull of Pius IX 'Ineffabilis Deus': D 74, 718, 2804."

Part 1 is in reference to the first part of Thesis 26, which is "a heretic, apostate, and schismatic by the fact itself" (are separated from the Body of the Church).

If one is separated from the Body of the Church, then he is a non-Catholic.  How a non-Catholic who was formerly Catholic receives the Sacrament of Penance is that he renounces his heresy in the Sacrament of Penance and follows the direction of the priest.

What is described above appears to apply only to those who are formally accused and found guilty of heresy, schism, apostacy. And this does not apply to the problem at hand....where a Pope supposedly loses his office ipso facto, and there is no formal censure.

You are the one who believes, do you not, that a Pope guilty of heresy loses his office automatically, with no notice or censure needed?

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #499 on: March 26, 2023, 08:43:42 PM »
If one is separated from the Body of the Church, then he is a non-Catholic.  

Those who remain in external union with the Church are not separated from the Body of the Church.  Alnd all of the recent popes have remained in external union with the Church.