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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59715 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #460 on: February 13, 2023, 04:36:40 AM »
Are you confused by my assertion?  My assertion is that Pope Pius XII teaches that heresy is one of those sins that per se severs a man from the Church.  I do not say that every sin severs per se a man from the Church.
I know that you "do not say that every sin severs per se a man from the Church." I am the one who is saying that, I am saying it because first, it is true and second, that is what PPXII is saying when that sentence is read in context. I am saying that sentence takes on a whole new meaning when it is taken out of context, which is what you are doing, which means you are giving new meaning to the teaching of PPXII.

Look, everyone, myself included, can look at what the CPs' (Conciliar Popes) have said and done and based on that evidence, say "they're not even Catholic." To be absolutely accurate, what we should say is "what the CPs' have said and done is not Catholic."  This we know is truth and we can say, are permitted to say, and should not even keep quiet about.

Sedes quote theologians and misquote popes to support the idea of sedeism, well, I am quoting one of many  theologians that teaches that sedes are schismatic and are therefore not members of the Church....

"Public schismatics are not members of the Church. They are not members because by their own action they sever themselves from the unity of Catholic communion....by such a rebellion that he would really in practice refuse to recognize the pope as the head of the Catholic Church." (Dogmatic Theology, Volume II, Christ’s Church, 243)

What you should do, is take time to find out and explain how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #461 on: February 13, 2023, 06:04:55 AM »
I know that you "do not say that every sin severs per se a man from the Church." I am the one who is saying that, I am saying it because first, it is true and second, that is what PPXII is saying when that sentence is read in context. I am saying that sentence takes on a whole new meaning when it is taken out of context, which is what you are doing, which means you are giving new meaning to the teaching of PPXII.

See, it's been a week since I last checked this thread, and you are STILL repeating this nonsense, which you've been repeating for years and which you'll be repeating years from now.

There's nothing "out of context," and the meaning of Pius XII is obvious.  Hersy / Schism sever from membership in the Church; other types of sins do not.  It couldn't be more obvious, and every Catholic theologian understood it precisely that way.  It's not even debated, but you keep wasting everyon'es time with this nonsense.  Most R&R argue about what TYPE of heresy sever from the Church, i.e. whether it has to be heresy that's been declared and officially judged heresy by the Church.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #462 on: February 13, 2023, 06:14:15 AM »
Since this was recently cited, I'd like to take a second to address this assertion from Father Chazal:
Quote
We stand against the opposite notion which is anarchy, and anarchy breeding; an almost protestant high opinionatedness. We are Catholic, not Protestants, especially because when a difference emerges amongst us, we wait patiently and charitably, until it can be resolved by an instrument established by Our Lord to prevent the fragmentation of the Church. Luther was surprised, disappointed, that after having thrown the Pope out, many popes immediately proliferated: a similar chaos reigns over the sede movement as a whole. Who can make the extensive list of sects sedevacantism has bred since the days of Fr. Saenz?

This fragmentation he speaks of is only resolved by the "instrument establish by Our Lord to prevent [it]" when all agree to submit to the authoritative judgments of said instrument.  So there's no fragmentation among R&R?  We had the Resistance split off from neo-SSPX, and then Pfeifer & Hewko split off from the rest of the Resistance, and then Hewko split off from Pfeiffer, and who knows what half the others are doing?  Even if they're not at odds on some things, they're all doing their own thing without any kind of cetralized unifying authority.  As Bishop Williamson has admitted, it was only the personality and the figure of Archbishop Lefebvre (and not this "instrument", aka the V2 papal claimants) that have glued a large portion of the Traditional movement together (the SSPX).  What unity there did exist among Trads was on account of +Lefebvre and his society.  PERHAPS +Williamson could have achieved a similar effect with the Resistance, but he opted not to do so, precisely because he realized that it would be an artificial unity distinct from the true unity achieved by a Vicar of Christ to whom all agree to SUBMIT when he steps in to resolve "fragmentation".  Payin the lip service of, "Yep, he's the pope." does nothing to create "unity" except at a most superficial level, an agreemnt about "Yep, he's the pope."

Very recently, I asked Resistance types why they refuse to get on board with Father Chazal's theological position on the crisis ... because many of them reject Father Chazal's sede-impoundist position.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #463 on: February 13, 2023, 07:14:36 AM »
See, it's been a week since I last checked this thread, and you are STILL repeating this nonsense, which you've been repeating for years and which you'll be repeating years from now.

There's nothing "out of context," and the meaning of Pius XII is obvious.  Hersy / Schism sever from membership in the Church; other types of sins do not.  It couldn't be more obvious, and every Catholic theologian understood it precisely that way.  It's not even debated, but you keep wasting everyon'es time with this nonsense.  Most R&R argue about what TYPE of heresy sever from the Church, i.e. whether it has to be heresy that's been declared and officially judged heresy by the Church.
Well I checked the thread daily and the sedes are STILL repeating the same old nonsense which they've been repeating forever and there's no sign of that slowing down.

What you should do, is take time to find out and explain how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.

Until you make that attempt, you are just as guilty as the other sedes of giving new meaning to PPXII's teaching - and as the resident professor, you know it. 

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #464 on: February 13, 2023, 08:09:00 AM »
Well I checked the thread daily and the sedes are STILL repeating the same old nonsense which they've been repeating forever and there's no sign of that slowing down.

What you should do, is take time to find out and explain how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.

Until you make that attempt, you are just as guilty as the other sedes of giving new meaning to PPXII's teaching - and as the resident professor, you know it. 


Stubborn,

I love your "stuff" and how you challenge the "hitters;" you have a nasty curveball. :laugh1:

I'd also love to hear an answer to that question too; it's a good one. Maybe there is a response but I haven't read it here. Anyway, I think your point reflects the point I've been trying to make on the heretic pope threads.

The heretic Catholic has lost the bond with Christ that only comes with possession of the Catholic faith, and in that sense he has "ipso facto" fallen out of the Church, which is the body of Christ, and is no longer a member. Yet he retains some sort of judicial or legal status in that he can walk into a confessional and simply repent, utilizing the sacraments only available to members of the Church.

The heretic pope likewise has lost the faith and lacks the spiritual bond with Christ, but retains a judicial and legal status. Indeed, the heretic Francis still sits there making cardinals, bishops, changing disciplines, the catechism - all despite his spiritually having "ipso facto" fallen from union with Christ and being, in the eyes of God, an outcast unless and until he repents. He (Francis) may be "out," but he still needs to be kicked out (judically and legally). The judicial and legal status is still there, unfortunately. If you say his judicial and legal actions are void - per the cuм Ex of Paul IV - that also awaits a judicial or legal determination in any event. So Francis keeps taking the actions of a pope, despite being a nonpope to the Sedes. And they get bent out of shape when I call the elected one confirmed by all the cardinals and accepted by all the bishops in all the Catholic dioceses of the world "pope." Yet even St. Robert Bellarmine called the heretic in the seat who could be judged and punished by the Church a "pope," simply acknowledging the position held and the seat sat in by the heretic. 

Anyway, in that sense, yes, in the sense that he can repent and be restored by the sacrament of penance, a heretic is just like any other sinner. But I have a question for you, since not all sins sever like heresy or schism (Mystici Corporis). How then are they different? Anyone in sin, any mortal sin, has lost the bond with Christ (the spiritual bond) as a result of losing his justification. Are you saying there is no difference with the sin of heresy or schism? I think Pius XII is clearly saying there is. So what's the difference?

DR