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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 42292 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #450 on: February 09, 2023, 01:07:38 PM »
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    Offline PaxVobis
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    Hello all,

    Just want to point out that the above user is not me who posted on this thread.  It's a variation of my username but not me.  

    I've not been on here since last Fall when Matthew's server rebooted and I lost my password, so I took a break.

    Also, I don't agree with this user's views.  That's why I'm pointing out the name confusion.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #451 on: February 09, 2023, 01:51:12 PM »
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  • We knew he wasn't you - no worries Pax - - and welcome back!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #452 on: February 12, 2023, 03:45:03 PM »
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  • What evidence, other than circuмstantial, do you have that Fr. Chazal relies on the work of Salza and Sisco? I have never seen any evidence that he has referred to them at all. Have you?

    Because:

    1. Fr. Paul Kramer states as much in his book.

    "Unfortunately, since Fr. Chazal is refuting a sedevacantist in his work, he relies too heavily on the thoroughly dishonest scholarship of Salza & Siscoe in their fraudulent diatribe against Sedevacantism, True or False Pope?"

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

    2. As per Fr. Kramer, the distinction of "per se" and "quad nos." is not an attributable to St. Thomas Aquinas.  Both Salza and Siscoe and Fr. Chazal make the claim that it is a traditional Dominican distinction because John of St .Thomas makes that distinction.  This gave me the impression that Fr. Chazal was using the work of Salza and Siscoe.  

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #453 on: February 12, 2023, 04:01:13 PM »
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  • No, it clearly states that not every sin severs as do the sins of heresy etc,. 

    Are you confused by my assertion?  My assertion is that Pope Pius XII teaches that heresy is one of those sins that per se severs a man from the Church.  I do not say that every sin severs per se a man from the Church.

    Here is another theologian that agrees with me:

    "In the encyclical (i.e., Mystici Corporis), the Holy Father speaks of schism, heresy, and apostasy, as sins which, of their very nature, separate a man from the Body of the Church.  He thereby follows the traditional procedure adopted by St. Robert himself in his De ecclesia militante."
    (Monsignor Joseph Fenton, The Status of St. Robert Bellarmine's Teaching about the Membership of Occult Heretics in the Catholic Church, The American Ecclesiastical Review, March 1950, p. 219)

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #454 on: February 12, 2023, 04:03:10 PM »
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  • It doesn't follow, Ladislaus.
    In the seminary you learned from Tertullian, Origen, Madirain...
    Their work should be judged on its merits. They have done some great work in my opinion. So sad the turn they have taken.
    God preserve us from a similar fate!

    Salza and Siscore have not done great work.  What they have done is confuse the minds of Traditional Catholics.  It is, rather, Fr. Paul Kramer that has done great work, and has shown the multiple errors of Salza and Siscoe.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #455 on: February 12, 2023, 04:10:34 PM »
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  • Salza and Siscore have not done great work.  What they have done is confuse the minds of Traditional Catholics.  It is, rather, Fr. Paul Kramer that has done great work, and has shown the multiple errors of Salza and Siscoe.

    Get a taste from here of the poor scholarship of Salza and Siscoe:

    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2016/01/23/st-robert-bellarmine-and-john-of-st-thomas-versus-john-salza-and-robert-siscoe/

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #456 on: February 12, 2023, 04:29:45 PM »
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  • Because:

    1. Fr. Paul Kramer states as much in his book.

    "Unfortunately, since Fr. Chazal is refuting a sedevacantist in his work, he relies too heavily on the thoroughly dishonest scholarship of Salza & Siscoe in their fraudulent diatribe against Sedevacantism, True or False Pope?"

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

    2. As per Fr. Kramer, the distinction of "per se" and "quad nos." is not an attributable to St. Thomas Aquinas.  Both Salza and Siscoe and Fr. Chazal make the claim that it is a traditional Dominican distinction because John of St .Thomas makes that distinction.  This gave me the impression that Fr. Chazal was using the work of Salza and Siscoe. 

    What source does Fr. Kramer use to justify his insistence that Fr. Chazal atributes the distinction of "per se" and "quad nos" to St. Thomas Aquinas? My copy of "Contra Cekada" does not mention this at all when referring to "per se" and "quad nos." No mention at all in the book of John of St. Thomas attributing it to St. Thomas Aquinas. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #457 on: February 12, 2023, 04:39:00 PM »
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  • What source does Fr. Kramer use to justify his insistence that Fr. Chazal atributes the distinction of "per se" and "quad nos" to St. Thomas Aquinas? My copy of "Contra Cekada" does not mention this at all when referring to "per se" and "quad nos." No mention at all in the book of John of St. Thomas attributing it to St. Thomas Aquinas.

    I don't know what source Fr. Kramer uses.  Perhaps he had communications directly with Fr. Chazal.  However, knowing Fr. Kramer, he is careful of what he publicly states.

    In Post No. 387 of this thread, DecemRationis wrote the following:

    "In his book Contra Cekadam
    , Fr. Chazal notes what he refers to as the traditional Dominican distinction between "per se" and "quoad nos," and says "[t]hings that have happened before God may not have yet happened before men" (page 93)."


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #458 on: February 12, 2023, 05:08:29 PM »
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  • I don't know what source Fr. Kramer uses.  Perhaps he had communications directly with Fr. Chazal.  However, knowing Fr. Kramer, he is careful of what he publicly states.

    In Post No. 387 of this thread, DecemRationis wrote the following:

    "In his book Contra Cekadam
    , Fr. Chazal notes what he refers to as the traditional Dominican distinction between "per se" and "quoad nos," and says "[t]hings that have happened before God may not have yet happened before men" (page 93)."

    Here are the paragraphs in question in Fr. Chazal's 'Contra Cekadam', pages 93, 94:

    "Mgr. Gerard des Laurier should have adhered to the theological distinction held by his Dominican predecessors; PER SE/QUOAD NOS. Things that have happened before God may not have yet happened before men, while something happens immediately when a Pope proffers a heresy. Should phenomenon happen per se, suapte natura, ex natura, ipso facto, by itself, from the very fact, yet we remain human, social beings, carrying on in a visible society endowed with a public life and a juridical bond. That is the way we are: social beings.

    Quoad Nos

    "We stand against the opposite notion which is anarchy, and anarchy breeding; an almost protestant high opinionatedness. We are Catholic, not Protestants, especially because when a difference emerges amongst us, we wait patiently and charitably, until it can be resolved by an instrument established by Our Lord to prevent the fragmentation of the Church. Luther was surprised, disappointed, that after having thrown the Pope out, many popes immediately proliferated: a similar chaos reigns over the sede movement as a whole. Who can make the extensive list of sects sedevacantism has bred since the days of Fr. Saenz? (At least the sedeplenists are divided only in three: the Ecclesia Dei, the neo-SSPX, and the Resistance). Without denying that our present Popes are insane, why not wait patiently for the juridical order of the Church? Why not accept that the situation is not in our hands, begging God to return the public life of the Church to the normalcy it enjoyed for so many centuries?"
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #459 on: February 12, 2023, 05:18:43 PM »
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  • Here are the paragraphs in question in Fr. Chazal's 'Contra Cekadam', pages 93, 94:

    "Mgr. Gerard des Laurier should have adhered to the theological distinction held by his Dominican predecessors; PER SE/QUOAD NOS. Things that have happened before God may not have yet happened before men, while something happens immediately when a Pope proffers a heresy. Should phenomenon happen per se, suapte natura, ex natura, ipso facto, by itself, from the very fact, yet we remain human, social beings, carrying on in a visible society endowed with a public life and a juridical bond. That is the way we are: social beings.

    Quoad Nos

    "We stand against the opposite notion which is anarchy, and anarchy breeding; an almost protestant high opinionatedness. We are Catholic, not Protestants, especially because when a difference emerges amongst us, we wait patiently and charitably, until it can be resolved by an instrument established by Our Lord to prevent the fragmentation of the Church. Luther was surprised, disappointed, that after having thrown the Pope out, many popes immediately proliferated: a similar chaos reigns over the sede movement as a whole. Who can make the extensive list of sects sedevacantism has bred since the days of Fr. Saenz? (At least the sedeplenists are divided only in three: the Ecclesia Dei, the neo-SSPX, and the Resistance). Without denying that our present Popes are insane, why not wait patiently for the juridical order of the Church? Why not accept that the situation is not in our hands, begging God to return the public life of the Church to the normalcy it enjoyed for so many centuries?"

    Thanks for the quotations.  Perhaps you are correct that Fr. Chazal did not rely on the poor scholarship of Salza and Siscoe.  I don't know why Fr. Kramer wrote what he did and from where DecemRationis got what he quoted. 

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #460 on: February 13, 2023, 04:36:40 AM »
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  • Are you confused by my assertion?  My assertion is that Pope Pius XII teaches that heresy is one of those sins that per se severs a man from the Church.  I do not say that every sin severs per se a man from the Church.
    I know that you "do not say that every sin severs per se a man from the Church." I am the one who is saying that, I am saying it because first, it is true and second, that is what PPXII is saying when that sentence is read in context. I am saying that sentence takes on a whole new meaning when it is taken out of context, which is what you are doing, which means you are giving new meaning to the teaching of PPXII.

    Look, everyone, myself included, can look at what the CPs' (Conciliar Popes) have said and done and based on that evidence, say "they're not even Catholic." To be absolutely accurate, what we should say is "what the CPs' have said and done is not Catholic."  This we know is truth and we can say, are permitted to say, and should not even keep quiet about.

    Sedes quote theologians and misquote popes to support the idea of sedeism, well, I am quoting one of many  theologians that teaches that sedes are schismatic and are therefore not members of the Church....

    "Public schismatics are not members of the Church. They are not members because by their own action they sever themselves from the unity of Catholic communion....by such a rebellion that he would really in practice refuse to recognize the pope as the head of the Catholic Church." (Dogmatic Theology, Volume II, Christ’s Church, 243)

    What you should do, is take time to find out and explain how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #461 on: February 13, 2023, 06:04:55 AM »
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  • I know that you "do not say that every sin severs per se a man from the Church." I am the one who is saying that, I am saying it because first, it is true and second, that is what PPXII is saying when that sentence is read in context. I am saying that sentence takes on a whole new meaning when it is taken out of context, which is what you are doing, which means you are giving new meaning to the teaching of PPXII.

    See, it's been a week since I last checked this thread, and you are STILL repeating this nonsense, which you've been repeating for years and which you'll be repeating years from now.

    There's nothing "out of context," and the meaning of Pius XII is obvious.  Hersy / Schism sever from membership in the Church; other types of sins do not.  It couldn't be more obvious, and every Catholic theologian understood it precisely that way.  It's not even debated, but you keep wasting everyon'es time with this nonsense.  Most R&R argue about what TYPE of heresy sever from the Church, i.e. whether it has to be heresy that's been declared and officially judged heresy by the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #462 on: February 13, 2023, 06:14:15 AM »
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  • Since this was recently cited, I'd like to take a second to address this assertion from Father Chazal:
    Quote
    We stand against the opposite notion which is anarchy, and anarchy breeding; an almost protestant high opinionatedness. We are Catholic, not Protestants, especially because when a difference emerges amongst us, we wait patiently and charitably, until it can be resolved by an instrument established by Our Lord to prevent the fragmentation of the Church. Luther was surprised, disappointed, that after having thrown the Pope out, many popes immediately proliferated: a similar chaos reigns over the sede movement as a whole. Who can make the extensive list of sects sedevacantism has bred since the days of Fr. Saenz?

    This fragmentation he speaks of is only resolved by the "instrument establish by Our Lord to prevent [it]" when all agree to submit to the authoritative judgments of said instrument.  So there's no fragmentation among R&R?  We had the Resistance split off from neo-SSPX, and then Pfeifer & Hewko split off from the rest of the Resistance, and then Hewko split off from Pfeiffer, and who knows what half the others are doing?  Even if they're not at odds on some things, they're all doing their own thing without any kind of cetralized unifying authority.  As Bishop Williamson has admitted, it was only the personality and the figure of Archbishop Lefebvre (and not this "instrument", aka the V2 papal claimants) that have glued a large portion of the Traditional movement together (the SSPX).  What unity there did exist among Trads was on account of +Lefebvre and his society.  PERHAPS +Williamson could have achieved a similar effect with the Resistance, but he opted not to do so, precisely because he realized that it would be an artificial unity distinct from the true unity achieved by a Vicar of Christ to whom all agree to SUBMIT when he steps in to resolve "fragmentation".  Payin the lip service of, "Yep, he's the pope." does nothing to create "unity" except at a most superficial level, an agreemnt about "Yep, he's the pope."

    Very recently, I asked Resistance types why they refuse to get on board with Father Chazal's theological position on the crisis ... because many of them reject Father Chazal's sede-impoundist position.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #463 on: February 13, 2023, 07:14:36 AM »
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  • See, it's been a week since I last checked this thread, and you are STILL repeating this nonsense, which you've been repeating for years and which you'll be repeating years from now.

    There's nothing "out of context," and the meaning of Pius XII is obvious.  Hersy / Schism sever from membership in the Church; other types of sins do not.  It couldn't be more obvious, and every Catholic theologian understood it precisely that way.  It's not even debated, but you keep wasting everyon'es time with this nonsense.  Most R&R argue about what TYPE of heresy sever from the Church, i.e. whether it has to be heresy that's been declared and officially judged heresy by the Church.
    Well I checked the thread daily and the sedes are STILL repeating the same old nonsense which they've been repeating forever and there's no sign of that slowing down.

    What you should do, is take time to find out and explain how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.

    Until you make that attempt, you are just as guilty as the other sedes of giving new meaning to PPXII's teaching - and as the resident professor, you know it. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #464 on: February 13, 2023, 08:09:00 AM »
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  • Well I checked the thread daily and the sedes are STILL repeating the same old nonsense which they've been repeating forever and there's no sign of that slowing down.

    What you should do, is take time to find out and explain how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.

    Until you make that attempt, you are just as guilty as the other sedes of giving new meaning to PPXII's teaching - and as the resident professor, you know it. 


    Stubborn,

    I love your "stuff" and how you challenge the "hitters;" you have a nasty curveball. :laugh1:

    I'd also love to hear an answer to that question too; it's a good one. Maybe there is a response but I haven't read it here. Anyway, I think your point reflects the point I've been trying to make on the heretic pope threads.

    The heretic Catholic has lost the bond with Christ that only comes with possession of the Catholic faith, and in that sense he has "ipso facto" fallen out of the Church, which is the body of Christ, and is no longer a member. Yet he retains some sort of judicial or legal status in that he can walk into a confessional and simply repent, utilizing the sacraments only available to members of the Church.

    The heretic pope likewise has lost the faith and lacks the spiritual bond with Christ, but retains a judicial and legal status. Indeed, the heretic Francis still sits there making cardinals, bishops, changing disciplines, the catechism - all despite his spiritually having "ipso facto" fallen from union with Christ and being, in the eyes of God, an outcast unless and until he repents. He (Francis) may be "out," but he still needs to be kicked out (judically and legally). The judicial and legal status is still there, unfortunately. If you say his judicial and legal actions are void - per the cuм Ex of Paul IV - that also awaits a judicial or legal determination in any event. So Francis keeps taking the actions of a pope, despite being a nonpope to the Sedes. And they get bent out of shape when I call the elected one confirmed by all the cardinals and accepted by all the bishops in all the Catholic dioceses of the world "pope." Yet even St. Robert Bellarmine called the heretic in the seat who could be judged and punished by the Church a "pope," simply acknowledging the position held and the seat sat in by the heretic. 

    Anyway, in that sense, yes, in the sense that he can repent and be restored by the sacrament of penance, a heretic is just like any other sinner. But I have a question for you, since not all sins sever like heresy or schism (Mystici Corporis). How then are they different? Anyone in sin, any mortal sin, has lost the bond with Christ (the spiritual bond) as a result of losing his justification. Are you saying there is no difference with the sin of heresy or schism? I think Pius XII is clearly saying there is. So what's the difference?

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.