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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 37622 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #405 on: January 31, 2023, 11:03:01 AM »
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  • If you don't mind my asking, why do you believe Joe Biden is an obvious heretic?  Have you heard him publicly deny a dogma with pertinacity?  Has he done so in writing? I am just curious how you arrived at your judgment.

    Seriously?  Next you're going to ask me how I know that water is wet.  Even a Novus Ordo "bishop" can spot a heretic.
    https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/michael-w-chapman/catholic-bishop-retweets-time-truth-post-joe-biden-heretic

    Biden holds that the government should fund abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.  Even if you want to claim that he distinguishes between public and private, he regularly argues that there should be a civil, legal, constitutional right to abortion.  That too is heretical.  On top of that, the man clearly does not believe that there's no salvation outside the Church.

    This quoad nos nonsense (phenomenological to begin with) is being taken to the point of absurdity.

    Biden claims that Bergoglio told him he's a "good Catholic" ... which I have no reason to doubt other than because Biden lies like it's going out of style.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #406 on: January 31, 2023, 11:07:24 AM »
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  • Also, Lad, wondering how blurry is it really?

    Since VII is a false religion

    anyone intending to implement VII

    is a heretic.  Isn't that right?

    With Bergoglio, there's very little blur.  It gets more complicated with someone like Ratzinger due to his "hermeneutic of continuity" approach.

    Nevertheless, mere adherence to Vatican II doesn't constitute heresy.  I know lots of people who will say that V2 can be reconciled with Tradition, and, even though I think they're wrong, that would be a material error not a formal one.  People hold that that NOM isn't so bad per se but that it has been abused; they might point to one of the EWTN NOMs where they do it in Latin, ad orientem, use Gregorian chant, etc. so that in some sense it outwardly resembles a Catholic Mass.


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #407 on: January 31, 2023, 11:19:15 AM »
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  • With Bergoglio, there's very little blur.  It gets more complicated with someone like Ratzinger due to his "hermeneutic of continuity" approach.

    Nevertheless, mere adherence to Vatican II doesn't constitute heresy.  I know lots of people who will say that V2 can be reconciled with Tradition, and, even though I think they're wrong, that would be a material error not a formal one.  People hold that that NOM isn't so bad per se but that it has been abused; they might point to one of the EWTN NOMs where they do it in Latin, ad orientem, use Gregorian chant, etc. so that in some sense it outwardly resembles a Catholic Mass.

    Well, isn't VII implementing a false religion?

    Plus it's ecuмenical stance and statement that we worship the same god as the Muslims etc.?


    The primary doctrinal error of this false council is religious indifferentism; to demonstrate this, we quote from the very docuмents which it promulgated. In the Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Nostra Aetate, (October 28, 1965) we find the clear contradiction of the first Commandment of God, “I am the Lord, thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before me”:
    Quote
    “From ancient times down to the present, there has existed among divers peoples a certain perception of the hidden power that hovers over the course of things and over the events of human life; at times, indeed, recognition can be found of a Supreme Divinity, and of a Supreme Father, too. Such a perception and such a recognition instill the lives of these peoples with a profound religious sense.
    “Thus, in Hinduism men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible fruitfulness of myths and a searching philosophical inquiry. They seek release from the anguish of our condition through ascetical practices or deep meditation or a loving, trusting flight toward God.”
    Hinduism is a pantheistic (the world is god) as well as a polytheistic (many gods) religion. It recognizes various gods in the created world. The world and everything in it, including man, is god. Among the various Hindu divinities, there are three of great importance — Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver; and Shiva, the destroyer. Hindus worship many animals as gods. Cows are the most sacred, but they also worship monkeys, snakes and other animals. How can Hindus make a “loving, trusting flight to God” when they worship false gods?
    Continuing from the Declaration Nostra Aetate:
    Quote
    “Buddhism in its multiple forms acknowledges the radical insufficiency of this shifting world. It teaches a path by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, can either reach a state of absolute freedom or attain supreme enlightenment by their own efforts or by higher assistance.”
    Buddhism teaches nothing about God; all beings are essentially equal; all things are changing constantly, except the Law alone by force of which good actions produce a reward, and bad actions bring forth punishment; therefore man does not differ essentially from other beings; he is subjected to a metempsychosis (the rebirth of the soul at death into the body of either a human or an animal form — reincarnation) until he acquires perfection in nirvana.
    How can the Conciliar Church speak of “supreme enlightenment” in Buddhism? How can there be any enlightenment without knowledge of the true God and with the false belief of reincarnation?
    Also from Nostra Aetate:
    Quote
    “Upon the Muslims, too, the church looks with esteem. They adore one God, living and enduring, merciful and all-powerful, Maker of heaven and earth and Speaker to men…. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet.”
    Once again we can recognize the utterly contradictory position of the Council. It praises the Muslims because “they revere Him (Jesus) as a prophet;” yet, they deny His divinity which Jesus Christ openly declared and most powerfully demonstrated by His miracles (especially His Resurrection). If the Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet, how can they claim that He is not divine. Prophets speak the truth from God, and Jesus Christ proclaimed Himself the Son of God!
    Again, from Nostra Aetate:
    Quote
    “Likewise, other religions to be found everywhere strive variously to answer the restless searchings of the human heart by proposing ‘ways,’ which consist of teachings, rules of life and sacred ceremonies.
    “The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions… The Church therefore has this exhortation for her sons: prudently and lovingly, through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, and in witness of Christian faith and life, acknowledge, preserve and promote the spiritual and moral goods found among these men, as well as the values in their society and culture.”
    Here we find the apostasy from the Catholic Church to the Conciliar Church of Vatican II! No longer will the Conciliar Church seek to convert the world to Christ; it will now promote the “good” found in those other religions; yet, what good is in the worship of false gods? The Declaration does not list any particular area of goodness of these false religions. How can one witness to the Christian faith while he promotes the “good” of false religions? This is an impossibility!


    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/the-doctrinal-errors-of-the-second-vatican-council/




    There is no "hermeneutic of continuity"!  lol :P


    Reconcile that with tradition??  Lad??
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #408 on: January 31, 2023, 12:02:45 PM »
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  • So I'm not sure I understand the explanation in the other post you are linking to.  Are you saying that these men were forgiven for their heresies if they went to confession even if they didn't confess them or publicly denounce them?  Therefore they are not really heretics?
    Heresy is a sin, if a Catholic commits that sin and wants to repent, he has to go to confession - something only members of the Church can do. No, public abjuration is not necessary for the forgiveness of the sin of heresy, apostacy or schism unless public abjuration is attached to the censure, or the bishop or priest requires it.

    Also, we have to be very careful about making sure our priests were properly consecrated, right?

    In the same way we need to make sure the pope was properly consecrated.  So many things depend on that so that's why it matters. 

    If they weren't properly consecrated neither were the cardinals, bishops, priests under them right?

    Plus, if they weren't properly consecrated it invalidates their decrees.
    No, once he accepts his election "he is the true pope" and has "full and absolute jurisdiction over the whole world." I'm quoting the law, not making this up.

    WE do not "make sure" of anything. Whomsoever chooses to disbelieve this, then per the law: "Hence, if anyone dares to challenge the docuмents prepared in regard to any business whatsoever that comes from the Roman Pontiff before the coronation, We bind him with the censure of excommunication to be incurred ipso facto."

    Which is to say he is pope prior to his coronation, or as you say "consecration."

    This means that by you needing to "make sure," you are "daring to challenge" "any business whatsoever that comes from the Roman Pontiff before the coronation" what he is saying is that by law this is forbidden, the penalty attached to "making sure" is "the censure of excommunication to be incurred ipso facto."

    Quote
    So these men from John XXIII on,

    intended to preach a different gospel, a different religion.

    With that intention, how could their consecration be valid?
    No, unlike sedes, the conciliar popes, being fully NO, actually, really and truly do believe with all of their being that V2 was infallible. And that they are preaching the Gospel, that their infallibility covers all their teachings, all of their laws and directives, and their infallibility is not limited to defining doctrines ex cathedra, and that they can never harm the Church, and that all who obey them can never be spiritually harmed. This is what they really and truly believe more strongly than you believe they're not popes.


    Quote
    As for Father Wathen's statement that "We can judge for our own sake that a heresy has been publicly pronounced..."

    And: "It does not matter who says it, if it’s contrary to the faith, its heresy."

    This I don't understand, because the Church does not teach heresy.  If it does then the Gates of Hell have prevailed against it.
    The Church does not teach heresy, the conciliar popes have taught heresy but popes are not the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #409 on: January 31, 2023, 12:12:18 PM »
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  • Well, isn't VII implementing a false religion?

    Plus it's ecuмenical stance and statement that we worship the same god as the Muslims etc.?
    ...
    Reconcile that with tradition??  Lad??

    Yes, it is my judgment that V2 / Conciliar Church constitute another religion.  But it's not another religion in the sense that it calls itself somethin else.  That's the difference.  If someone joins the Orthodox Church, since it's formally outside the Church, then they belong to a new religion.  But the Conciliar Church claims to be Catholic, and many who belong to it do so precisely because they believe that it's the Catholic Church.  That's the very definition of material error.

    Why do I need to reconcile V2 with Tradition?  I can't and don't [although the quote you selected there can easily be hermeneutic-ed into conformity with Tradition if I tried].  I'm saying, however, that some people claim that it can be reconciled ... even if they don't know the details.  95% of Novus Ordites don't even know what's in Vatican II and what it taught.


    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #410 on: January 31, 2023, 12:12:52 PM »
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  • Seriously?  Next you're going to ask me how I know that water is wet.  Even a Novus Ordo "bishop" can spot a heretic.
    https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/michael-w-chapman/catholic-bishop-retweets-time-truth-post-joe-biden-heretic

    Biden holds that the government should fund abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.  Even if you want to claim that he distinguishes between public and private, he regularly argues that there should be a civil, legal, constitutional right to abortion.  That too is heretical.  On top of that, the man clearly does not believe that there's no salvation outside the Church.

    You made a lot of allegations, but you didn't provide any evidence that Biden has publicly denied a dogma, much less did you show that he has done so with pertinacity.  If Biden is your example of an obvious heretic, you should be able to provide sufficient evidence to show how you arrived at your conclusion.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #411 on: January 31, 2023, 12:17:25 PM »
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  • You made a lot of allegations, but you didn't provide any evidence that Biden has publicly denied a dogma, much less did you show that he has done so with pertinacity.  If Biden is your example of an obvious heretic, you should be able to provide sufficient evidence to show how you arrived at your conclusion.

    Can you not read?  It's right there in the second paragraph that you cite from my post.  He promotes the notion that murder (aka abortion) is a civl right that should be protected and funded by government.  That's heresy.  Do you think that the only heresy is doctrinal, like denial of the Holy Trinity?  There's moral heresy as well.

    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #412 on: January 31, 2023, 12:29:12 PM »
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  • Can you not read?  It's right there in the second paragraph that you cite from my post.  He promotes the notion that murder (aka abortion) is a civl right that should be protected and funded by government.  That's heresy.  Do you think that the only heresy is doctrinal, like denial of the Holy Trinity?  There's moral heresy as well.

    I read your allegations, but you didn't provide any evidence to support it.  Show us what Biden actually said, in context, and then we can determine if it constitutes a direct denial of a dogma with evidence of pertinacity.

    And yes, heresy is ONLY doctrinal.  It involves the rejection of a proposition.  Some doctrines have a practical or moral application, but heresy itself pertains to the doctrinal judgment.  It is a dogma that adultery is a sin, but if a man cheats on his wife it doesn't prove that he's a heretic.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #413 on: January 31, 2023, 12:38:23 PM »
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  • . . .

    And no I don't think I understand the distinction of an occult heretic vs a manifest heretic.

    And I was trying to make an analogy with the twinkie as invalid matter for consecration.  Perhaps I should explain it better.

    See whether the heretic is occult or manifest, my understanding is that he would be barred for any office (according to the unanimous opinion of the Church Fathers as I posted above).

    . . .



    An occult heretic is a heretic whose heresy is unknown to others, and hence not "public" or "manifest." Interestingly, Msg. Fenton wrote an article about a fellow priest/theologian who argued, using Mystici Corporis in fact, that not even an occult heretic was a member of the Church, and Fenton had nice things to say about him and, while disagreeing, said it was an open question. More food for thought.

    Anyway, since we are talking about office, Card. Newman is an even better example than Erasmus:


    Quote
    In 1845 an Anglican minister became a Catholic — John Henry Newman. Already learned in patristics, he did not equip himself with an adequate formation in Catholic theology. Ordained priest, he wrote on theological questions, admitting errors in Holy Scripture, salvation outside the Church, etc. One of the propositions later condemned by St. Pius X’s Lamentabili (Prop. 25) appears three times verbatim in different writings of Newman. Naturally in the prelude to the 1870 Vatican Council he opposed papal infallibility. His writings were attacked and refuted by Cardinals Franzelin, Lépicier and Billot, by Perrone and Brownson among others. Cardinal Manning reproached him with ten distinct heresies to be found in his writings. Other bishops spoke of his heresies also. Detailed refutations appeared which he could hardly have been unaware of. Nonetheless he retracted nothing.


    So was he a heretic? Far from being excommunicated ... he was raised to the cardinalate! The whole Church remained in communion with him. The only explanation for this must be that, despite appearances, his errors were not deemed to be directly and explicitly heretical ... or else that the Catholics of the day, from the pope down, had a conception of pertinacity considerably more demanding than that in circulation among members of that sedevacantist school which hurls its anathemas so lightly in our days.

    (Richard Sartino: Another Look at John Henry Cardinal Newman)


    https://romeward.com/articles/239752007/heresy-in-history

    Not only must we hold heretics "anathema" per Scripture, but also those who communicate with them:


    Quote
    2 John

    [10] If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you. [11] For he that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works.

    Not only the good, legitimate Catholic popes who elevated Newman, but the good, Catholic cardinals, Franzelin, Lépicier, Billot and Manning - none of them denied communing with Newman, despite his heresy clearly being public, since those cardinals knew about it and called it out.

    So what's the upshot of the Newman and Erasmus cases? They can't - or shouldn't be - dismissed on this question of being "ipso facto" outside the Church by "public, manifest" heresy.

    Does the "ipso facto" loss of membership not apply to Newman and Erasmus, and just apply to the pope?

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #414 on: January 31, 2023, 01:58:14 PM »
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  • And no I don't think I understand the distinction of an occult heretic vs a manifest heretic.

    That's an important distinction since only manifest heretics lose their office.  Occult heresy is the sin of heresy that is either entirely hidden, or has been manifested externally, but not sufficiently to be considered as proof in court.  That's how Fr. Berry defines it.  The following is taken from his book, The Church of Christ, 1955.  He explains how a person enters the Church, what it means to "profess the true faith," and the meaning of manifest heretics (formal and material) and manifest schismatics:



    Art. II. True Conditions of Membership.
    .
    INITIATION.  The first condition for membership is deduced from the social nature of the Church. No one becomes a member of any society unless he is received into it by proper authority, and made a participant in its benefits according to his capacity.  The official act of receiving a person into a society must be manifested externally in some manner. This is usually done by a symbolic act, known as the rite of initiation.  The initiatory rite of the Church was instituted by Christ himself…  Baptism, therefore, is the rite of initiation into the Church; …
    .
    PROFESSION OF FAITH.  Every member of a society must accept its end and aims according to his ability, and he must strive, at least in some degree, to realize those aims. He that rejects the purposes of a society thereby rejects the society itself; he can neither become a member, nor remain one if already received into the society.
    .
    The practice of the Christian religion, which consists in the external profession of Christian faith, is the proximate end to be obtained in the Church. Therefore, external profession of faith is an essential condition for membership. Moreover, the Church must be one in the external profession of faith, consequently he that severs this bond of unity is separated from the body of the Church, i.e., he ceases to be a member.
    .
    SUBJECTION TO AUTHORITY. The very existence of a society depends upon the subjection of its members to authority; therefore he that rejects the authority of a society, rejects the society itself and ceases to be a member. Neither can the end of a society be realized unless the members be directed by its authority in their common endeavors to that end. Therefore, rejecting the authority of a society is tantamount to rejecting its end and aims, which is to reject the society itself. Consequently no one can be a member of any society unless he submits to its authority according to his ability, furthermore, in regard to the Church, there must be unity m the external profession of the true faith, which Christ committed to the teaching authority of the Church.  Therefore, the profession of faith necessary for membership in the Church practically revolves itself into submission to her teaching authority.
    .
    SUMMARY OF CONDITIONS 1. FOR ADULTS.  The above considerations show that three conditions are absolutely necessary and of themselves sufficient for membership in the Church; viz: 
    .
    (a) Initiation by baptism;
    (b) External profession of the true Faith which is had by submission to the teaching authority of the Church.
    (c) Submission to the ruling authority of the Church.
    .
    These conditions may be briefly summarized in one phrase: the reception of Baptism, and the preservation of the unities – unity of faith, unity of worship, and unity of government; or in other words, reception of Baptism and submission to the teaching and ruling authority of the Church. It should be noted, however, that perfect observance of the unities is not required for mere membership in the Church; a person need not make an explicit profession of faith at all times; nor conform all his actions to it. He need not make a diligent use of the Sacraments at all times, neither must he be free from all infractions of Church laws and precepts.  His transgressions will not exclude from membership unless they amount to a rejection of authority.
    .
    From the principles just established it follows that the adult membership of the Church comprises all those who have been baptized and have not rejected her teaching or ruling authority.
    .
    Article III. Persons excluded from membership.
    .
    Only those who fulfill the three conditions mentioned above, enjoy the privilege of membership in the Church; therefore all unbaptized persons, whether infant or adults, and all manifest heretics and schismatics, and those excommunicated as vitandi are excluded. …
    .
    A heretic is usually defined as a Christian, i.e., a baptized person, who holds a doctrine contrary to a revealed truth; but this definition is inaccurate, since it would make heretics of a large portion of the faithful. A doctrine contrary to a revealed truth is usually stigmatized as heretical, but a person who professes an heretical doctrine is not necessarily a heretic. Heresy, from the Greek hairesis, signifies a choosing; therefore a heretic is one who chooses for himself in matters of faith, thereby rejecting the authority of the Church established by Christ to teach all men the truths of revelation. He rejects the authority of the Church by following his own judgment or by submitting to an authority other than that established by Christ.  A person who submits to the authority of the Church and wishes to accept all her teachings, is not a heretic, even though he profess heretical doctrines through ignorance of what the Church really teaches; he implicitly accepts the true doctrine in his general intention to accept all that the Church teaches.
    .
    A person may reject the teaching authority of the Church knowingly and willingly, or he may do it through ignorance. In the first case he is a formal heretic, guilty of grievous sin; in the second case, he is a material heretic, free from guilt. Both formal and material heresy may be manifest or occult. Heresy is manifest when publicly known to such an extent that its existence could be proved in a court of law; it is occult if not externally manifested by word or act, or if not sufficiently public to allow proof of its existence in court.
    .
    The word schism is derived from the Greek which means a division or separation; hence a schismatic is a Christian who separates from the Church by rejecting her authority. He may do this by refusing submission to his bishop, no less than by rejecting the supreme authority of the Roman Pontiff. It is evident however, that a person does not become a schismatic by a mere act of disobedience; there must be some word or act that involves rejection of authority.  Schism, like heresy, may be formal or material, manifest or occult.
    .
    EXCLUDED FROM MEMBERSHIP.  Manifest heretics and schismatics are excluded from membership in the Church. Heretics separate themselves from unity of faith and worship: schismatics from the unity of government; and both reject the authority of the Church.  So far as exclusion from the Church is concerned, it matters not whether the heresy or schism be formal or material.  Those born and reared in heresy or schism may be sincere in their belief and practice, yet they publicly and willingly reject the Church and attach themselves to sects opposed to her; they are not guilty of sin in the matter, but they are not members of the Church. For this reason, the Church makes no distinction between formal and material heresy when receiving converts into her fold.
    .
    There is no need to adduce arguments from Scripture or tradition for a truth that is practically self-evident.  St. Jerome says: “An adulterer, a homicide, and other sinners are driven from the Church by the priests (i.e., by excommunication): but heretics pass sentence upon themselves, leaving the Church by their own free will.”  St. Augustine gives expression to the same doctrine: “If you do not wish to belong to the Church … separate yourself from her members, put yourself off from her body.  But why should I now urge them to leave the Church, since they have already done this?  They are heretics, and therefore already out.” (Fr. E. Sylvester Berry, The Church of Christ, 1955)



    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #415 on: January 31, 2023, 02:00:19 PM »
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  • I read your allegations, but you didn't provide any evidence to support it.  Show us what Biden actually said, in context, and then we can determine if it constitutes a direct denial of a dogma with evidence of pertinacity.

    And yes, heresy is ONLY doctrinal.  It involves the rejection of a proposition.  Some doctrines have a practical or moral application, but heresy itself pertains to the doctrinal judgment.  It is a dogma that adultery is a sin, but if a man cheats on his wife it doesn't prove that he's a heretic.

    So you need me to find and cite a wall of text where Biden says the abortion should be protected by law and funded by the government and that it's a right?  You can Google that for yourself.  By doctrinal I mean vs. having to do with moral theology, perhaps dogmatic would have been a better choice of words.  There's a distinction, academically, between dogmatic theology and moral, and holding erroneous propositions about morality are also heresy.  So, if someone held that sodomy is not sinful, that would be heresy.

    Simple Google search on "Biden defends right to abortion" or "Biden calls abortion a fundamental right" ... will get you all the evidence you need.  Biden isn't merely doing evil, he's upholding it in principle, and that makes it heresy.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/08/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-sign-executive-order-protecting-access-to-reproductive-health-care-services/




    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #416 on: January 31, 2023, 02:09:25 PM »
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  • So you need me to find and cite a wall of text where Biden says the abortion should be protected by law and funded by the government and that it's a right? 

    That's not what I asked for.  What I asked you to cite is evidence that Biden has publicly denied a dogma with pertinacity.  Since he was your example of an obvious heretic, that shouldn't be difficult for you to do. 

    And heresy requires a direct denial a dogma, not merely sinful behavior and sinful acts.  Promoting abortion and/or committing adultery are evil acts, but neither act is proof of heresy.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #417 on: January 31, 2023, 02:23:46 PM »
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  • That's not what I asked for.  What I asked you to cite is evidence that Biden has publicly denied a dogma with pertinacity.  Since he was your example of an obvious heretic, that shouldn't be difficult for you to do. 

    And heresy requires a direct denial a dogma, not merely sinful behavior and sinful acts.  Promoting abortion and/or committing adultery are evil acts, but neither act is proof of heresy.

    Having an abortion would be sinful behavior.  Declaring that abortion is a fundamental right is heresy.  Wow, the disgraceful depths to which some of you R&R have fallen, where even the Conciliars recognize that Biden is a non-Catholic, but you cling to absurdity in defense of your heretical ecclesiology.

    https://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=83579
    Quote
    In the case of Catholics who persevere in public, manifest grave sin, their dissent from Church teaching is known to all. It's public. Which means their lack of full communion with the Church is known to all. When Catholic politicians who openly support intrinsic evils such as abortion, same-sex "marriage," and the use of contraceptives to frustrate the marital act, argue in the public square that these evils are "rights" people have and therefore must be enshrined in the positive law, they place themselves at odds with Christ and the belief of his Church.


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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #418 on: January 31, 2023, 02:42:45 PM »
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  • Having an abortion would be sinful behavior.  Declaring that abortion is a fundamental right is heresy.  Wow, the disgraceful depths to which some of you R&R have fallen, where even the Conciliars recognize that Biden is a non-Catholic, but you cling to absurdity in defense of your heretical ecclesiology.

    https://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=83579

    You haven't provided any evidence that Biden publicly denies a dogma with pertinacity.  The quote you provided from the Novus Ordo Deacon saying Biden is no longer in "full communion" doesn't suffice.  Neither does it suffice to show that Biden can be denied communion, since the same applied to all public sinners.  But a public sinner doesn't = a public heretic. 

    Why are you having such a difficult time providing a shred of evidence that Biden publicly denies a dogma with pertinacity, when he was the example that you gave of an obvious heretic?  Do you know why you can't do it?  Because you a think bad Catholic = public heretic. 

    Let's see what you can come up with post factum to prove the "obvious" judgment that you reached before you had any actual evidence.

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #419 on: January 31, 2023, 05:08:57 PM »
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  • Wow, the disgraceful depths to which some of you R&R have fallen, where even the Conciliars recognize that Biden is a non-Catholic, but you cling to absurdity in defense of your heretical ecclesiology.

    Actually, it looks like the Novus Ordos consider Biden to be a Catholic after all, the quote you cited about him not being "in full communion" not withstanding.  In the following article, they qualify him as a Catholic, but "dissenting Catholic," not a heretic.

    Joe Biden is Not a Heretic | Mark Wilson (patheos.com)

    (All the bold and underlines are in the original)


    Joe Biden is Not a Heretic

    Something Catholics tend to do quite frequently in online discourse  is read a headline of an article and not the article itself.

    They then make a judgement, reach a verdict and pronounce a sentence and then proceed to carry it out. These internet warriors think their the Catholic Judge Dredd.

    This was recently done to Fr. Casey Cole which you can read about In Defence of Father Casey Cole.

    So I ask readers to actually read all the way through so we don’t end up with comments like…

    “Again pathetic patheos fools.
    "Calling BS on the sanctimonious hypocrisy of this author’s pathetic pontification.
    "This is one of the many leftist modernists who write for this website. Not to be trusted.”

    There is a good overall point in this post, so keep reading and find out why Joe Biden is NOT A HERETIC.

    The article rewards close reading. It is not a defense, but a call for understanding precise terms used by the Church. …

    Is Joe Biden a Heretic?

    I think that it is important for Catholics to get their definitions correct.
    Words have meaning and if we get the definitions of words wrong we distort the truth. …

    APOSTASY?
    HERESY?
    AUTOMATIC EXCOMMUNICATION?
    NOT BEING A (PRACTICING) CATHOLIC? (On frequently misused/misunderstood terms and concepts)

    Someone who dissents from Catholic teaching may be called a dissident.

    For example, President Biden dissents from Church teaching on a number of points. Perhaps most notoriously, on the subject of abortion, although he professes to affirm the Church’s teaching regarding the immorality of abortion, he strongly dissents from the Church’s teaching regarding the moral obligation of states to protect the lives of all members of the human community, including the unborn. This makes him a dissident.

    (N.b. The cogency of Mr. Biden’s professed position is not my topic here. I am considering only how his position should be characterized in the legal categories of Church thought.)

    As a dissident, Mr. Biden is in an impaired state of communion with the Church. Because of this, per canon 916, he is morally obliged to refrain from presenting himself for communion.

    Furthermore, my understanding of canon 915 is that he should be advised of this obligation and exhorted to repent—and if, in spite of this, he continues to present himself for communion without repenting, at some point he should be denied communion. (More from canonist Ed Peters Cardinal Gregory, unfortunately in my view, is of a different view.)

    This is very different from other ways of characterizing Mr. Biden’s standing in the Church that one hears bandied about, for example on Catholic social media.

    For example, I have seen claims to the effect that Mr. Biden is an “apostate,” a “heretic,” or “not a (practicing) Catholic.” The idea that Mr. Biden’s public pro-choice stance means that he is automatically excommunicate (a penalty known as latae sententiae excommunication), or at any rate that he should be excommunicated by competent authority (ferendae sententiae excommunication), is also circulating in Catholic social media.

    First things first.

    The word “apostasy” is widely misused today as a synonym for “heresy” (or an intensified form of heresy, like really bad heresy). In fact, heresy and apostasy are very different things.
    Apostasy refers to “total repudiation of the Christian faith” (CCL 751). In other words, an apostate is a baptized person who plainly disowns the name of Christian and all allegiance to Jesus Christ. This is different from a heretic, who claims to be a Christian, but distorts the faith in a specific way. (I find that some people are helped on this point by the observation that the emperor Julian the Apostate was an apostate, while Arius the Arch-heretic was only a heretic.)
    Clearly Mr. Biden, who identifies as Catholic and goes to Mass, is not an apostate.
    Is he then a heretic? Heresy is a specific type of deformation of the Christian faith, namely, “the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith” (CCL 751).

    This describes what is properly called dogma — that is, “all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium” (CCL 750).

    The teaching that states are morally obliged to protect the lives of all members of the human community, including the unborn, belongs to the social teaching of the Church. It is not a divinely revealed dogma which must be believed with divine and catholic faith. So Mr. Biden’s dissent on this point does not rise to the level of heresy.

    What about the oft-repeated slogan that “You can’t be Catholic and support abortion”? It is certainly true that someone who supports legal abortion can’t claim to be a Catholic “in good standing,” (i.e., in unimpaired communion with the Church).

    Yet this does not remove them from membership in the Church. Even excommunicated Catholics are still Catholic; contrary to popular belief, excommunication does not place you outside the Catholic Church or take away your membership in the Church. (More from Dr. Peters)

    “(It) is the mistaken idea that, upon excommunication, a “person is no longer a member of the Catholic Church.” Actually an excommunicated Catholic is still a Catholic in rather the same way that a convicted felon is still a citizen. An excommunicated Catholic is simply (sadly, but simply) a Catholic who is excommunicated.

    “Canon 205 recognizes as Catholic any baptized person who is joined with the Church “in its visible structure by the bonds of profession of faith, of the sacraments, and of ecclesiastical governance.”

    So Mr. Biden is definitely Catholic. Is he a practicing Catholic? “Practicing” isn’t a canonical or theological term, but it seems to me that, as the term is commonly used, if a person goes to Mass with any regularity, they can reasonably claim to be “practicing.”

    Is Mr. Biden excommunicate? Or *could he be* excommunicated by Church authority on the basis of his dissent from Church teaching on the moral obligation of states to protect the lives of the unborn? Again, the answer is no”. (Dr. Peters again)

    “First, Canon 916. There are lots of mortal sins out there; if you commit any one of them, you’re not supposed to go to Communion. It’s your obligation to stay away. Next, Canon 915. Some mortal sins are committed under circuмstances that, if the Church finds out about them, not only are you supposed to the stay away from Communion, but the Church is supposed to turn you away if you try to receive. Finally, Canon 1331. A few mortal sins are serious crimes under canon law; if you commit one of those, you can suffer the penalty of excommunication, and one of the consequences of excommunication is, you can’t go to Communion.”

    In short: Mr. Biden is in dissent, and that is quite serious enough. He should refrain from receiving communion, and I believe it would be just to deny him communion.

    But his pro-choice position does not make him apostate or a heretic; it does not make him not a Catholic (or not practicing); it does not make him automatically excommunicate or qualify him for excommunication.

    The extent of each of these words (“practicing” aside) and penalties is carefully defined. We should take care not to throw them about recklessly.

    I want to add these further resources that add some worthy commentary to the topic at hand.

    “A person who has committed heresy, apostasy, or schism may no longer identify himself as a Catholic, but he’s still bound by the Church’s laws—including, for example, the obligation to attend Mass every Sunday (without receiving Holy Communion, of course).This brings to mind the old saying, “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.” There’s a sense in which that’s true, since the legal obligations we acquire upon being baptized or received into the Church continue to exist even if we renounce the Faith and no longer regard ourselves as Catholic.

    “It is even more clear that someone who still professes to be Catholic—even unfaithfully—remains so, even if it is purely in a ‘bodily’ way and not ‘in his heart’.” (END)
    .
    It looks like the author of this article couldn't find any evidence of Biden denying a dogma with pertinacity either. So you're not alone.