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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 24517 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #345 on: January 29, 2023, 04:42:45 PM »
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  • As usual, you have it bass ackwards:

    It is your color of title escape clause which has nothing to do with apostolicity.

    What are you talking about now?

    You started by throwing out the "65 years" taunt.  At that point I challenged you to come up with a principle rather than a number, since if it's based on a number you'd have to be able to define the precise limit in mathematical terms.  So then you stated the principle that the Church would defect if there were no more bishops out there with ordinary jurisdiction.  Both sedeprivationism, in general, and sedevacantism, through the color of title principle, permit there to be bishops with ordinary jurisdiction.  That puts the argument to rest.  Are you claiming now that there's a different principle that you failed to articulate?


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #346 on: January 29, 2023, 05:09:50 PM »
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  • My initial intent was to demonstrate how easily you or anyone (including me) can preach heresy (or error), all the while believing the whole time that they are preaching de fide teachings of the Church. Your quotes that I posted is just one example.

    It is only my opinion, but those teachings you refer to, they must be talking about those heretics who've never been Catholic and who've always been outside of the Church.

    “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as 
    of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy
     or apostasy.”
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23)

    You cannot sever something that was never attached.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #347 on: January 29, 2023, 05:12:48 PM »
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  • What are you talking about now?

    You started by throwing out the "65 years" taunt.  At that point I challenged you to come up with a principle rather than a number, since if it's based on a number you'd have to be able to define the precise limit in mathematical terms.  So then you stated the principle that the Church would defect if there were no more bishops out there with ordinary jurisdiction.  Both sedeprivationism, in general, and sedevacantism, through the color of title principle, permit there to be bishops with ordinary jurisdiction.  That puts the argument to rest.  Are you claiming now that there's a different principle that you failed to articulate?

    Yup, your 65 year interregnum, in which you say no bishops have jurisdiction, rejects apostolicity (which requires said jurisdiction, as I showed above).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #348 on: January 29, 2023, 05:39:35 PM »
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  • You cannot have a pope who does not have jurisdiction.

    So you agree, then, that the papal office is inextricably linked with ordinary jurisdiction.  Now if you hold (as you yourself admitted) that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church, then if a man who holds the papal office commits the public sin of manifest formal heresy yet retains ordinary jurisdiction despite being separated from the Church, you are also holding that the papal office can exist separated from the Church.  And this is preposterous.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #349 on: January 29, 2023, 06:09:23 PM »
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  • So you agree, then, that the papal office is inextricably linked with ordinary jurisdiction.  Now if you hold (as you yourself admitted) that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church, then if a man who holds the papal office commits the public sin of manifest formal heresy yet retains ordinary jurisdiction despite being separated from the Church, you are also holding that the papal office can exist separated from the Church.  And this is preposterous.

    You’re outmaneuvering yourself again.

    You’re first source of confusion is that you have no idea what a publis manifest heretic is.

    Your second is that, as Billuart explained, an heretical pope retains jurisdiction until such time as he’s declared deposed.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #350 on: January 29, 2023, 06:12:19 PM »
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  • You’re outmaneuvering yourself again.

    You’re first source of confusion is that you have no idea what a publis manifest heretic is.

    Your second is that, as Billuart explained, an heretical pope retains jurisdiction until such time as he’s declared deposed.

    What is a public manifest heretic?

    Billuart was wrong, as both St. Robert Bellarmine and Fr. Paul Kramer stated, in that he confused ordinary jurisdiction with supplied jurisdiction.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #351 on: January 29, 2023, 06:22:16 PM »
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  • What is a public manifest heretic?

    Billuart was wrong, as both St. Robert Bellarmine and Fr. Paul Kramer stated, in that he confused ordinary jurisdiction with supplied jurisdiction.

    Have it your way Tony (or just review pp. 1-20 of this thread to refute yourself).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #352 on: January 29, 2023, 06:25:50 PM »
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  • Have it your way Tony (or just review pp. 1-20 of this thread to refute yourself).

    What is a public manifest heretic?  Please teach me again.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #353 on: January 29, 2023, 06:36:05 PM »
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  • What is a public manifest heretic?  Please teach me again.

    Never heard of one.  Could you please teach me again, and again?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #354 on: January 29, 2023, 06:44:57 PM »
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  • Never heard of one.  Could you please teach me again, and again?

    I am surprised that you agreed with my following statement if I don't understand the meaning of the terms:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates one from the Church.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #355 on: January 29, 2023, 06:50:09 PM »
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  • I am surprised that you agreed with my following statement if I don't understand the meaning of the terms:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates one from the Church.

    Could you please explain that all to me?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #356 on: January 29, 2023, 07:00:51 PM »
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  • ...but not his jurisdiction over the Church, as has been repeatedly shown.

    Catholic Knight wrote:  "What we know for certain is that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates one from the Church."

    Mr. Johnson responded with the above.  Why would he respond such if Catholic Knight doesn't know what a public manifest heretic is?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #357 on: January 29, 2023, 07:14:11 PM »
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  • Catholic Knight wrote:  "What we know for certain is that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates one from the Church."

    Mr. Johnson responded with the above.  Why would he respond such if Catholic Knight doesn't know what a public manifest heretic is?


    Could you please review that all for me again?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #358 on: January 29, 2023, 07:22:02 PM »
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  • "Salza and Siscoe quote Billuart (who quotes Martin V’s Ad evitanda scandala) in a futile attempt to refute Bellarmine and the unanimous teaching of the Fathers....."

    "Billuart’s error consists in his failure to make a critical distinction between those who lose their jurisdiction as a result of excommunication, and those who lose it ex natura hæresis, as a consequence of defecting from the faith and the Church, and thereby losing office and jurisdiction. Bellarmine points out that the decree only applies to excommunicates."

    "The reason why Billuart’s failure to distinguish between those who lose their jurisdiction as a result of excommunication, and those who lose it ex natura hæresis, is of such great consequence, is that the ordinary and habitual jurisdiction of the officeholder is lost upon loss of office due to tacit resignation; but the excommunicates were provided with supplied jurisdiction in virtue of Ad evitanda scandala, and by the subsequent legislation that later replaced its provisions."

    "Billuart erroneously deduced that 'heretics retain their jurisdiction', whereas all jurisdiction is lost by heretics, ex natura hæresis; but since heretics incur excommunication latæ sententiæ, jurisdiction was supplied by the decree Ad evitanda scandala. Billuart’s failure to distinguish between retaining jurisdiction and receiving supplied jurisdiction in virtue of the law itself led him into error on the question of loss of jurisdiction of a heretic pope."

    "Billuart’s argues that since heretics retain jurisdiction 'for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful', therefore similarly, 'Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church.' Bellarmine’s words crush Billuart’s thesis: 'I say this avails to nothing. For those Fathers, when they say that heretics lose jurisdiction, do not allege any human laws which maybe did not exist then on this matter; rather, they argued from the nature of heresy.' Hence, there can be no exception by way of a 'special dispensation' from a loss of jurisdiction that results from the very nature of heresy. Heretics do not retain their jurisdiction: Jurisdiction is supplied to latæ sententiæ excommunicated heretics who not only lose all habitual jurisdiction, by their excommunication, but lose it ex natura hæresis. Billuart correctly notes that 'The pope… does not have his jurisdiction from the Church, but from Christ', but the pope would cease to be a member of the Church and lose all jurisdiction from Christ if he fell into manifest heresy; and since the pope cannot incur excommunication for so long as he remains pope, he could not receive supplied jurisdiction from such legislation as Ad evitanda scandala unless he were to fall from the Pontificate by tacit renunciation of office. Only then would he become minor quolibet catholico and accordingly incur excommunication latæ sententiæ, and straightaway receive supplied jurisdiction until his loss of office could be enforced by a declaratory sentence – but he would already have ceased to be pope."

    All of the above quotes are taken from:

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

    St. Robert Bellarmine and Fr. Paul Kramer refute Billuart.  Ad Evitanda Scandala and Canon 2264 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law concern supplied jurisdiction and not ordinary jurisdiction.  To state that a man who holds the papal office, then commits the public sin of manifest formal heresy separates him from the Church by that very public sin (i.e., per se) yet retains ordinary jurisdiction (which is inextricably linked to the papal office) is to state that the papal office can exist separated from the Church.  Preposterous!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #359 on: January 29, 2023, 07:52:07 PM »
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  • St. Robert Bellarmine and Fr. Paul Kramer refute Billuart.  Ad Evitanda Scandala and Canon 2264 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law concern supplied jurisdiction and not ordinary jurisdiction.  To state that a man who holds the papal office, then commits the public sin of manifest formal heresy separates him from the Church by that very public sin (i.e., per se) yet retains ordinary jurisdiction (which is inextricably linked to the papal office) is to state that the papal office can exist separated from the Church.  Preposterous!

    Could you please explain that all to me?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."