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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59544 times)

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #270 on: January 26, 2023, 05:34:51 PM »
What a mess the Church is in! (and this thread!)

True subjection to any authority requires true obedience (vs false obedience).

The problem with the recent Popes is that they so habitually abuse their authority that it is necessary for us to separate ourselves from them, as Archbishop Lefebvre clearly stated, because they represent such a grave danger to faith and morals. This is not a denial that they possess authority, but rather a recognition that they are not putting that authority at the service of the Faith. In the case of bishops, St Robert says the teaching of the Church is "they are not to be listened to" but not that the faithful depose them which is the role of the Church authority.

We continue to pray for the Pope every day in the Mass. We offer our daily Rosaries for his conversion and that he will obey Our Lady of Fatima and consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. We pray for the Intentions of the Holy Father (which are the same Intentions as all his predecessors) every day to gain Indulgences.

This is not paying mere lip service to the Pope. It is a thoroughly Catholic attitude in an extraordinary situation in the Church. Many theologians have spoken of the duty to resist the erring Pontiff or the Pontiff destroying the Church. This is not schism, and there is no danger of schism, formal or otherwise.

If your father goes to live in a brothel, the family doesn't move in with him. When he tells you how to run the household, you tell him respectfully: "Dad, when you come back home and start behaving like a father, and loving our mother, and show us that you have the welfare of our family at heart, then we will start listening to you again". I'm not denying he is my father, nor that he has authority. Nor am I denying perhaps that the authorities should deal with him! Every analogy has limits of course.

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #271 on: January 26, 2023, 05:45:03 PM »
How do sedevacantists reject the authority of the Roman Pontiff in principle if, in their opinion, the man who claims to be the Roman Pontiff is not, and does not have authority to submit to?
Correct. That is not denying the authority of the Roman Pontiff in principle. Clearly most Sedevacantists are not schismatics. The danger of schism that Archbishop Lefebvre and others spoke about relates more to the future. As the Archbishop said, if there is no Pope, no Cardinals, no bishops, where will the next Pope come from, who will tell us who is the Pope? Will those who have gone down the SV track recognise a future successor of St Peter? That is the concern.


Offline Meg

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #272 on: January 26, 2023, 06:37:30 PM »
As I've repeatedly stated, I have no issues with Archbishop Lefebvre's position.  He unequivocally affirmed that the protection of the Holy Spirit precludes such damage being done to the Church by the exercise of papal authority, but siimply prescinded from adopting a explanation for how this has happened.  In one talk, he went through the possibilities, a drugged pope, a blackmailed pope, etc., dismissing these as very unlikely, but then ended up saying SVism is a possible explanation.  He repeatedly stated that SVism is possible.  But he left open the possibility that there was some other explanation and therefore never asserted SVism.  There's nothing wrong with that stance.  But many modern R&R have lost sight of this distinction, claiming that the protection / guidance of the Holy Spirit over the papal office does ot prevent a Pope from thoroughly corrupting the Magisterium and the Public worship of the Church.  That is NOT the position of Archbishop Lefebvre, who said the complete opposite.

Ladislaus, if no one posts what Archbishop Lefebvre really believed, then others reading this forum might be in danger of thinking that you are stating the truth about what the Archbishop believed, when you are not.

Here is what +ABL stated in his book, "Open Letter to Confused Catholics," published in 1986, pg. 176, from the chapter titled, "Neither a Heretic or a Schismatic":

"I have not ceased repeating that if anyone separates himself from the Pope, it will not be I. The question comes down to this: the power of the Pope within the Church is supreme, but not absolute and limitless, because it is subordinate to the Divine authority which is expressed in Tradition, Holy Scripture, and the definitions already promulgated by the Church's magisterium. In fact, the limits of papal power at set by the ends for which it was given to Christ's Vicar on earth, ends which Pius IX clearly defined in the constitution Pastor Aeternus of the First Vatican Council. So in saying this I am not expressing a personal theory.

"Blind obedience is not Catholic; nobody is exempt from responsibility for having obeyed man rather than God if he accepts orders from a higher authority, even a Pope, when these are contrary to the Will of God as it is known from certainty from Tradition. It is true that one cannot envisage such an eventuality when papal infallibility is engaged; but this happens only in a limited number of cases. It is an error to think that every word uttered by a Pope is infallible."

"Nevertheless, I am not among those who insist or insinuate that Paul Vl was a heretic and therefore, by that very fact, no longer Pope. John Paul I and John Paul II would then not have been legitimately elected. This is the position of those called "sede-vacantists."

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #273 on: January 26, 2023, 06:43:03 PM »
Ladislaus, if no one posts what Archbishop Lefebvre really believed, then others reading this forum might be in danger of thinking that you are stating the truth about what the Archbishop believed, when you are not.

Here is what +ABL stated in his book, "Open Letter to Confused Catholics," published in 1986, pg. 176, from the chapter titled, "Neither a Heretic or a Schismatic":

"I have not ceased repeating that if anyone separates himself from the Pope, it will not be I. The question comes down to this: the power of the Pope within the Church is supreme, but not absolute and limitless, because it is subordinate to the Divine authority which is expressed in Tradition, Holy Scripture, and the definitions already promulgated by the Church's magisterium. In fact, the limits of papal power at set by the ends for which it was given to Christ's Vicar on earth, ends which Pius IX clearly defined in the constitution Pastor Aeternus of the First Vatican Council. So in saying this I am not expressing a personal theory.

"Blind obedience is not Catholic; nobody is exempt from responsibility for having obeyed man rather than God if he accepts orders from a higher authority, even a Pope, when these are contrary to the Will of God as it is known from certainty from Tradition. It is true that one cannot envisage such an eventuality when papal infallibility is engaged; but this happens only in a limited number of cases. It is an error to think that every word uttered by a Pope is infallible."

"Nevertheless, I am not among those who insist or insinuate that Paul Vl was a heretic and therefore, by that very fact, no longer Pope. John Paul I and John Paul II would then not have been legitimately elected. This is the position of those called "sede-vacantists."

Yet, I've heard from several sources that he called these popes anti-Christs.

Offline Meg

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #274 on: January 26, 2023, 06:58:46 PM »
Yet, I've heard from several sources that he called these popes anti-Christs.

So you believe that they are, or were popes? It seems that you do. Because +ABL certainly did. He was not a sedevacantist, despite the best efforts of sedevacantists on this forum saying otherwise.