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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59545 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #255 on: January 26, 2023, 06:39:36 AM »
RR do not refuse subjection to the Pope.

I think you meant sedes.

Sean, do you even logic?  SVs refuse subjection to a man they don't believe is the Pope.  To claim that they refuse subjection to the Pope is to beg the question that Jorge Bergoglio is the pope.  As per the quotations cited, if Jorge is the pope, they would be materially schismatic, but not formally.  SVs base their refusal of subjection to Jorge on the well-founded questioning of his legitimacy.  Even Bishop Williamson and Avrille have stated that their position is "understandable".

(Non-Chazalist) R&R on the other hand assert that Jorge is certainly and categorically / unequivocally the pope.  In which way are you subject to Jorge Bergoglio, aka "Pope Francis"?  By saying "He's the Pope." or by putting up a picture of Jorge at the local Trad chapel?

This difference is in line with my analogy about taking the $100 bill.  If you see a $100 bill on a table and pick it up, thinking it's yours, but it turns out to belong to someone else, you have committed theft materially but not formally.  If you see a $100 bill on the table and pick it up, thinking it belongs to someone else, but it turns out to belong to you (say you left it there earlier but forgot), then you have committed theft formally but not materially.  SVs are potentially in material schism (if Jorge is the pope), but not formal schism.  R&R on the other hand are in danger of formal schism.

If rejecting a Pope's Magisterium, refusing to accept the Mass he promulgated and to recognized the saints he's canonized, etc. if that isn't refusal of subjection, then there's no such thing.  As I said, merely paying lip service, "Yep.  He's the Pope." and putting his picture up in the vestibule while rejecting everything the man stands for, that doesn't constitute "subjection" by any reasonable standard.  Now, where it gets blurry is that classic R&R holds that in principle you must obey the Pope except when he teaches something erroneous or commands something evil.  But when is the last time anyone accepted anything that Jorge taught or commanded?  Do you respectfully read through each Encyclical (Recyclical) of his and learn from the Holy Father, while respectfully disagreeing with the particular sentences that you find fault with?  No, you simply throw them in the trash bin before even reading them.  I called you out on another thread for deriding and mocking Jorge.  Is that the proper attitude of a Catholic who believes the man is the Pope?  Your attitude should be, "Holy Father, I must respectfully disagee with [this, that, or the other point]."  To hold the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ, in contempt the way your clearly do, that's crossing over into a formally schismatic attitude.  Probably the only thing absolving you of formal schism would be the confusion of this crisis.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #256 on: January 26, 2023, 06:46:51 AM »
Good quote, Meg. I agree, I think that that condition, him being suspect, is taken for granted in the quotes I posted above.

Right.  If R&R at least entertained a DOUBT about Jorge, as Archbishop Lefebvre did, for example, they'd be absolved from schism.  Bishop Williamson, for instance, has clearly stated that there's some room for doubt there.  So has +Vigano.

Dogmatic Sedeplenists however are in a very bad way.

Generally speaking, the legitimacy of a Pope is either dogmatic fact or at least moral certainty (depending on the theologian), but that's a technicality.  Both dogmatic and moral certainty preclude any doubt.  But if R&R were to say, "Yeah, I have my suspicions about Jorge," they'be be OK in terms of schism.  Unfortunately, out of animosity toward sedevacantism, many of them overstate their case and adopt an attitude of dogmatic or at least moral certainty regarding Jorge's legitimacy.  If you look at what Archbishop Lefebvre said and wrote, he regularly entertained doubts about the V2 papal claimants.

As I've repeatedly stated, I have no issues with Archbishop Lefebvre's position.  He unequivocally affirmed that the protection of the Holy Spirit precludes such damage being done to the Church by the exercise of papal authority, but siimply prescinded from adopting a explanation for how this has happened.  In one talk, he went through the possibilities, a drugged pope, a blackmailed pope, etc., dismissing these as very unlikely, but then ended up saying SVism is a possible explanation.  He repeatedly stated that SVism is possible.  But he left open the possibility that there was some other explanation and therefore never asserted SVism.  There's nothing wrong with that stance.  But many modern R&R have lost sight of this distinction, claiming that the protection / guidance of the Holy Spirit over the papal office does ot prevent a Pope from thoroughly corrupting the Magisterium and the Public worship of the Church.  That is NOT the position of Archbishop Lefebvre, who said the complete opposite.


Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #257 on: January 26, 2023, 06:53:46 AM »
That depends on the requirements of the censure or the requirements given at the time the censure was issued. According to Canon Law, no abjuration of heresy is required for absolution - unless  the bishop makes it a requirement.  I posted the canon law once but cannot find it now.

At any rate, Fr. Wathen explains it......
"It may surprise lay readers to learn that in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. This means, of course, that everyone who has received a censure, and everyone who is"under a censure," is a Catholic, since he goes to confession to seek its removal.....

One who is not a Catholic cannot receive the Sacraments. The excommunicated Catholic can receive the Sacrament of Penance, whereby the censure can be removed, and the sin be forgiven. The Church first removes the censure, then forgives the sin...

May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication,
(suspension), and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
(The word suspensionis {suspension} is used only for clerics. A cleric may be suspended without being excommunicated; but, should he incur excommunication, he is suspended also.)..."

I would think that one separated from the Church because of his public heresy would go through the same process unless he publicly joined, for example, a Protestant sect.  In that case, he would also be a schismatic.  Being a heretic and schismatic may require a different process to come back to the Church.

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #258 on: January 26, 2023, 06:55:15 AM »
Titular bishops have office, but no ordinary jurisdiction:

"According to the present ecclesiastical discipline no bishop can be consecrated without title to a certain and distinct diocese which he governs either actually or potentially. Actual government requires residence, potential does not. Hence, there are two principal classes of bishops, the residential, or diocesan or, local, or ordinary; and the non-residential, or titular. Diocesan bishops have and exercise (de jure) full power of order and jurisdiction, in and over the diocese committed to their exclusive care by the pope. Titulars, as such, have not, and do not exercise, power of order and jurisdiction, in and over their titular sees."

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02145b.htm

Okay.  Is the papal office inextricably linked with ordinary jurisdiction?

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #259 on: January 26, 2023, 07:36:52 AM »
I would think that one separated from the Church because of his public heresy would go through the same process unless he publicly joined, for example, a Protestant sect.  In that case, he would also be a schismatic.  Being a heretic and schismatic may require a different process to come back to the Church.
My initial intent was to demonstrate how easily you or anyone (including me) can preach heresy (or error), all the while believing the whole time that they are preaching de fide teachings of the Church. Your quotes that I posted is just one example.

It is only my opinion, but those teachings you refer to, they must be talking about those heretics who've never been Catholic and who've always been outside of the Church.