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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 42334 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #240 on: January 25, 2023, 06:46:56 PM »
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  • I can’t find a definition for schism which includes Lad’s minutiae.

    What I do find is that one who rejects the authority of the pope to govern the universal Church is schismatic.

    This would seem to include by definition all those who deny the legitimacy of Francis, does it not?

    PS: And since the Church has not determined his pertinacity, by definition he is not a “formal manifest” heretic (as has been repeatedly discussed).
    I might be talking nonsense here (again!) but I would say materially schismatic, perhaps, but not formally, at least for most of them. I think the depth of the crisis in the Church excuse most of us from errors in these matters, since all of us here want to adhere to the Roman See with all our heart and soul. The Church is in 'new territory'!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #241 on: January 25, 2023, 06:50:48 PM »
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  • Titular bishops have office, but no ordinary jurisdiction:

    "According to the present ecclesiastical discipline no bishop can be consecrated without title to a certain and distinct diocese which he governs either actually or potentially. Actual government requires residence, potential does not. Hence, there are two principal classes of bishops, the residential, or diocesan or, local, or ordinary; and the non-residential, or titular. Diocesan bishops have and exercise (de jure) full power of order and jurisdiction, in and over the diocese committed to their exclusive care by the pope. Titulars, as such, have not, and do not exercise, power of order and jurisdiction, in and over their titular sees."

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02145b.htm
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #242 on: January 25, 2023, 07:06:22 PM »
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  • I can’t find a definition for schism which includes Lad’s minutiae.

    What I do find is that one who rejects the authority of the pope to govern the universal Church is schismatic.

    This would seem to include by definition all those who deny the legitimacy of Francis, does it not?

    PS: And since the Church has not determined his pertinacity, by definition he is not a “formal manifest” heretic (as has been repeatedly discussed).

    I have posted this several times in the past:


    Canonists have told us that sedevacantists are not schismatic if they recognize the papacy, do not intend to reject a true pope and act with good reason.

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #243 on: January 25, 2023, 07:11:21 PM »
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  • I might be talking nonsense here (again!) but I would say materially schismatic, perhaps, but not formally, at least for most of them.

    IF they're wrong that Bergoglio is not the pope, then they would be in material schism.  You're begging the question that Bergoglio is the Pope.  Again, multiple Canon Lawyers state that refusal of submission to the Holy See is not schismatic if done on account of well-founded doubts about a pope's legitimacy ... or even pride, stubbornness, simple laziness, etc.  Sedevacantists are sedevacantists precisely because they uphold the requirement for Catholics to be in submission to the Holy See.  If anything, certain R&R positions carry the risk of becoming formally shismatic.  There's a bit of a fine line between simple disobedience and schism, but the line is in great danger of being crossed when people refuse to accept the papal Magisterium and refuse to attend the same Mass that the "Pope" offers.  Paying lip service by saying "Bergoglio is pope" and putting his picture up in the vestibule does not constitute submission to the Pope ... when people reject pretty much every decision and teaching emanating from the putative "Pope".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #244 on: January 25, 2023, 07:15:05 PM »
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  • I have posted this several times in the past:


    Canonists have told us that sedevacantists are not schismatic if they recognize the papacy, do not intend to reject a true pope and act with good reason.

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)

    Yes, these have been posted here by you and by man others (myself included) many times here on CI.  You'll notice that the reason that R&R refuse subjection to the Roman Pontiff is not listed among the exceptions, namely, because the Pope's Magisterium has become corrupt.  That's precisely the claim made by the Protestants, Orthodox, and Old Catholics.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #245 on: January 25, 2023, 07:22:43 PM »
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  • Yes, these have been posted here by you and by man others (myself included) many times here on CI.  You'll notice that the reason that R&R refuse subjection to the Roman Pontiff is not listed among the exceptions, namely, because the Pope's Magisterium has become corrupt.  That's precisely the claim made by the Protestants, Orthodox, and Old Catholics.

    RR do not refuse subjection to the Pope.

    I think you meant sedes.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #246 on: January 25, 2023, 07:23:45 PM »
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  • Is ordinary jurisdiction inextricably bound to an office?
    It's a good question, but one that I think is unresolved in the case of the Pope.

    We have already heard the opinion of many of the theologians on this thread, but I think it is worthwhile hearing again what St Robert Bellarmine says in relation to this:

    1. "...if the pastor is a bishop, they (the faithful) cannot depose him and put another in his place. For Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people, and not that they depose them. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop's councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff."

    This, "they are not to be listened to", might suggest that St Robert's opinion is that the bishop has lost jurisdiction even before he loses office. He says elsewhere (I just can't find the passage at the moment) that the moment they begin preaching heresy they can bind and loose no one...

    Does he hold the same in relation to the Pope?

    It is difficult sometimes (for amateurs like me at least) to reconcile his various opinions expressed in different works.

    2. "...the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of his right to summon Councils and preside over them... unless he were first convicted by the legitimate judgement of a Council and is not Supreme Pontiff... For the supreme prince, as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge..."

    3. Writing specifically on the obedience of bishops to the Pope at a Council: "...inferiors ought not be free from the obedience to superiors, unless first he were legitimately deposed or declared not to be a superior..."

    Does that mean the bishops will blindly obey the Pope? Not at all, St Robert continues "...for they swear they will be obedient to the Supreme Pontiff, which is understood as long as he is Pope, and provided he commands these things which, according to God and the sacred canons he can command; but they do not swear that they are not going to say what they think in the Council, or that they are not going to depose him if they were to clearly prove that he is a heretic.".

    Here again we have the example of true obedience. The bishops will only obey the Pope provided that... There is no schism here!







    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #247 on: January 25, 2023, 07:32:16 PM »
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  • I have posted this several times in the past:


    Canonists have told us that sedevacantists are not schismatic if they recognize the papacy, do not intend to reject a true pope and act with good reason.

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
    Good post QVD, we newbies haven't seen all the old posts :)


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #248 on: January 25, 2023, 07:39:32 PM »
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  • I have posted this several times in the past:


    Canonists have told us that sedevacantists are not schismatic if they recognize the papacy, do not intend to reject a true pope and act with good reason.

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)

    Hmm.  

    Interesting quote, QVD.

    I'll dig into this.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #249 on: January 26, 2023, 02:59:58 AM »
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  • I have posted this several times in the past:


    Canonists have told us that sedevacantists are not schismatic if they recognize the papacy, do not intend to reject a true pope and act with good reason.

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)

    I'll add one to the list.

    Cardinal Catejan wrote:

    "If somebody for a reasonable motive holds as suspect the person of the Pope, and refuse his presence, even his jurisdiction, he does not commit any delict of schism, nor any other delict as long as he is ready to accept the Pope if he were not suspect. It is obvious that we the right to avoid what is causing damage and to prevent dangers."

    Notice the condition that Cardinal Catejan attaches to the idea of holding the pope suspect and refusing his jurisdiction. I have to wonder if the three quotes provided by QVD might also have a similar condition.

    Fr. Chazal points that in the above quote, Catejan does not say that one has to refuse jurisdiction of the suspect Pontiff, but that someone could, for good reason.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #250 on: January 26, 2023, 03:13:30 AM »
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  • I'll add one to the list.

    Cardinal Catejan wrote:

    "If somebody for a reasonable motive holds as suspect the person of the Pope, and refuse his presence, even his jurisdiction, he does not commit any delict of schism, nor any other delict as long as he is ready to accept the Pope if he were not suspect. It is obvious that we the right to avoid what is causing damage and to prevent dangers."

    Notice the condition that Cardinal Catejan attaches to the idea of holding the pope suspect and refusing his jurisdiction. I have to wonder if the three quotes provided by QVD also have a similar condition.

    Fr. Chazal points that in the above quote, Catejan does not say that one has to refuse jurisdiction of the suspect Pontiff, but that someone could, for good reason.

    Good quote, Meg. I agree, I think that that condition, him being suspect, is taken for granted in the quotes I posted above. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #251 on: January 26, 2023, 03:19:49 AM »
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  • Good quote, Meg. I agree, I think that that condition, him being suspect, is taken for granted in the quotes I posted above.

    The condition that I was referring to is that one does not commit any delict of schism as long as he is ready to accept the Pope if he were not suspect. According to Catejan. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #252 on: January 26, 2023, 03:43:20 AM »
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  • The condition that I was referring to is that one does not commit any delict of schism as long as he is ready to accept the Pope if he were not suspect. According to Catejan.

    Yes, if you have no reason to suspect him then you absolutely must accept him.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #253 on: January 26, 2023, 05:32:19 AM »
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  • I have posted this several times in the past:


    Canonists have told us that sedevacantists are not schismatic if they recognize the papacy, do not intend to reject a true pope and act with good reason.

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)
    Not 100% sure if this below canon is the one being referenced above, but it seems to be........

    Canon 1325

    § 2. After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic; if he completely turns away from the Christian faith, [such a one is] an apostate; if finally he refuses to be under the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the Church subject to him, he is a schismatic.



    From what I can find, the quoted reference from QVD is that of a commentary on Canon Law by Wernz, which was later revised by Vidal in 1943 according to the quote - Link:  https://tinyurl.com/2nk8zhv6

    If someone wants to translate for themselves...



    Quote
    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    https://tinyurl.com/yc8bpcr5 is a link to Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948
    I'm expanding the quote here below, bolding the above text:
    The Communication of Catholics with Schismatics 


    the name of Christian, nevertheless refuses obedience to the
    Supreme Pontiff or refuses to communicate with those members
    of the Church who are subject to him. 2 There is here involved
    no denial of any article of divine or Catholic faith. Strictly
    considered, a schismatic professes belief in the sovereign power
    and primacy of the Pope, but out of malice refuses to be subject
    to him and to obey him as the Head of the Church and the Vicar
    of Christ on earth. Such schism is called pure schism.

    To constitute the delict of schism in the strict sense, the
    following conditions are required:

    1 ) One must withdraw directly (expressly) or indirectly (by
    means of one’s actions) from obedience to the Roman
    Pontiff, and separate oneself from ecclesiastical com¬
    munion with the rest of the faithful, even though one does
    not join a separate schismatical sect;

    2 ) one’s withdrawal must be made with obstinacy and rebel¬
    lion ;

    3) the withdrawal must be made in relation to those things
    by which the unity of the Church is constituted; and

    4) despite this formal disobedience the schismatic must rec¬
    ognize the Roman Pontiff as the true pastor of the
    Church, and he must profess as an article of faith that
    obedience is due the Roman Pontiff. 3

    As a consequence there is no schism involved if one separates
    from his bishop and the communion of the faithful of his diocese,
    but remains subject to the Roman Pontiff and the Universal
    Church. However, today such a position would be impossible
    to maintain in practice. Nor is there any schism if one merely
    transgress a Papal law for the reason that one considers it too
    difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects
    the person of the Pope or the validity of his election, or if one
    resists him as the civil head of a state. 4


    (4 Reiffenstuel, Jus Canonicuм TJniversum (5 vols. in 3, Maceratae, 1760, 
    Lib. V, tit. 8, n. 5 (hereafter cited Jus Canonicuм); Schmalzgrueber, Jus)

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #254 on: January 26, 2023, 05:32:52 AM »
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  • De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
    Continued here due to formatting went haywire on the previous post for some reason.....
    Here is the link, from 1646: https://tinyurl.com/2uhs7kk4


    Thanks to Gardner on SD for doing all the leg work!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse