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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 57138 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #135 on: January 23, 2023, 07:21:38 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on January 23, 2023, 06:51:33 AM
Fr. Hesse:

Objective (or Material) heresy is: "According to the Church, salvation is attainable outside the Church".
Formal (or Manifest) heresy is: "I don't care what the Church teaches, the Church is wrong, I say salvation is attainable outside the Church".

The accusation that the conciliar popes are manifest heretics has never been proven.

I doubt that he distinguished it this way.  No, the first proposition is formally heretical because it's a simple negation of a Catholic dogma.  To say that Christ did not rise from the dead is also formally heretical.  Only gross ignorance can accuse from public formal manifest heresy in the case of a direct verbatim negation of a defined dogmatic proposition, and ... guess what ... ignorance cannot accuse a "Pope" from denying a defined dogma directly because he is culpable for the ignorance due to the requirements of his duty of state.

MAYBE a fresh convert might be excused for not knowing about the Immaculate Conception, but there can be no such excuse for a "Pope".  And we're not talking in your first example about a bevy of distinctions being applied to circuмvent a dogma, but a simple negation.

What is "proven" is that the Papal Magisterium cannot ever become substantially corrupt, and that the Pope cannot promulgate a harmful Rite of Public Worship that displeases God.  To say otherwise is heretical.  You can come up with with whatever explanation you want for how it wasn't legitimate Papal Authority exercised freely that gave us the evils of V2 and the NOM, but to deny the above proposition is heretical.  You have been admonished publicly for this heresy multiple times, and yet you pertinaciously adhere to it.  That would make you a public/manifest heretic as well.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #136 on: January 23, 2023, 07:52:15 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 23, 2023, 07:21:38 AM
I doubt that he distinguished it this way.  No, the first proposition is formally heretical because it's a simple negation of a Catholic dogma....
I will go with Fr. Hesse.

Heck, you post heresies from Fr. Fenton as if they are teachings of the Church when you, and certainly he  should know better, so not sure what makes you think Fr. Hesse is wrong and you're the expert.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #137 on: January 23, 2023, 07:57:22 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 23, 2023, 07:21:38 AM

What is "proven" is that the Papal Magisterium cannot ever become substantially corrupt, and that the Pope cannot promulgate a harmful Rite of Public Worship that displeases God.  To say otherwise is heretical.  You can come up with with whatever explanation you want for how it wasn't legitimate Papal Authority exercised freely that gave us the evils of V2 and the NOM, but to deny the above proposition is heretical.  You have been admonished publicly for this heresy multiple times, and yet you pertinaciously adhere to it.  That would make you a public/manifest heretic as well.

Here we go again. Don't you ever tire of this? Hold onto your delusions if necessary to your mental balance, but prithee desist from calling those heretics who can deal with reality and maintain their balance. 

So you simply gut the principle of indefectibility from its mooring and say, when a string of popes elected according to established procedure and with the universal consent of the hierarchy of cardinals and bishops have corrupted the Magisterium and promulgated a harmful Rite of Public Worship, that they are not popes, so the Magisterium remains indefectible. 

By that standard, yeah, there could never be a corrupt Magisterium with a harmful Rite of Public Worship. But, as I said, that guts indefectibility of the reason for its provision by God to the Church in the first place: so that the faithful could rely with confidence on the teaching of the hierarchy of the Church and the means of salvation (the sacraments) that they provide for sanctification. 

But no, that apparently is not the purpose of indefectibility. Apparently, the purpose it was provided by God was to be a wubby that Ladislaus can clutch to at night and hide under when those guys running the Church provide all kinds of false teaching and a harmful Rite of Public Worship to the rest of the Catholics in the world. 

:facepalm:

If the rai·son d'ê·tre of indefectibility has been eliminated it is because God has a purpose in mind that entails him using a corrupt Magisterium in these latter days, in the consummation of the age, and not because the men He is working His will through are not pope(s) and bishop(s) in the Catholic Church. 
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #138 on: January 23, 2023, 09:34:07 AM »
And I'm going to keep writing it until some of you wake up to the fact that you've completely (and pertinaciously) embraced a heretical ecclesiology.

This is not rocket science.  Our Lord promised the assistance of the Holy Spirit to the See of Peter, an assistance which prevents it from corrupting faith or morals.

You have two choices to avoid heresy, 1) claim that faith and morals haven't been corrupted (that V2 was misinterpreted by Modernists and the NOM is not essentially bad but has been abused) or 2) assert that legitimate Papal authority exercised freely did not produce V2 and the NOM.

Within #2, you have various choices, from sedevacantism, sedeprivationism, sedeimpoundism, Siri thesis, blackmailed pope, drugged pope, pope replaced by a double, etc.

This Chair of Peter cannot fail, and to say otherwise is heretical.  Period.  End of Story.  Address it with #1 or with #2 (and any permutation of #2), but you can't simply run off and pertinaciously embrace some repackaged form of Old Catholicism / Eastern Orthodoxy / Protestantism.

You have the temerity to refer to this Basic Foundation of Catholicism as "delusion".  Unbelievable.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #139 on: January 23, 2023, 09:37:46 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on January 23, 2023, 07:57:22 AM
a corrupt Magisterium in these latter days

Heresy, and there's a mountain of papal teaching, teaching from the Doctors of the Church, and from the Church Fathers that accuse you.


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