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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 37556 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #135 on: January 23, 2023, 07:21:38 AM »
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  • Fr. Hesse:

    Objective (or Material) heresy is: "According to the Church, salvation is attainable outside the Church".
    Formal (or Manifest) heresy is: "I don't care what the Church teaches, the Church is wrong, I say salvation is attainable outside the Church".

    The accusation that the conciliar popes are manifest heretics has never been proven.

    I doubt that he distinguished it this way.  No, the first proposition is formally heretical because it's a simple negation of a Catholic dogma.  To say that Christ did not rise from the dead is also formally heretical.  Only gross ignorance can accuse from public formal manifest heresy in the case of a direct verbatim negation of a defined dogmatic proposition, and ... guess what ... ignorance cannot accuse a "Pope" from denying a defined dogma directly because he is culpable for the ignorance due to the requirements of his duty of state.

    MAYBE a fresh convert might be excused for not knowing about the Immaculate Conception, but there can be no such excuse for a "Pope".  And we're not talking in your first example about a bevy of distinctions being applied to circuмvent a dogma, but a simple negation.

    What is "proven" is that the Papal Magisterium cannot ever become substantially corrupt, and that the Pope cannot promulgate a harmful Rite of Public Worship that displeases God.  To say otherwise is heretical.  You can come up with with whatever explanation you want for how it wasn't legitimate Papal Authority exercised freely that gave us the evils of V2 and the NOM, but to deny the above proposition is heretical.  You have been admonished publicly for this heresy multiple times, and yet you pertinaciously adhere to it.  That would make you a public/manifest heretic as well.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #136 on: January 23, 2023, 07:52:15 AM »
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  • I doubt that he distinguished it this way.  No, the first proposition is formally heretical because it's a simple negation of a Catholic dogma....
    I will go with Fr. Hesse.

    Heck, you post heresies from Fr. Fenton as if they are teachings of the Church when you, and certainly he  should know better, so not sure what makes you think Fr. Hesse is wrong and you're the expert.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #137 on: January 23, 2023, 07:57:22 AM »
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  • What is "proven" is that the Papal Magisterium cannot ever become substantially corrupt, and that the Pope cannot promulgate a harmful Rite of Public Worship that displeases God.  To say otherwise is heretical.  You can come up with with whatever explanation you want for how it wasn't legitimate Papal Authority exercised freely that gave us the evils of V2 and the NOM, but to deny the above proposition is heretical.  You have been admonished publicly for this heresy multiple times, and yet you pertinaciously adhere to it.  That would make you a public/manifest heretic as well.

    Here we go again. Don't you ever tire of this? Hold onto your delusions if necessary to your mental balance, but prithee desist from calling those heretics who can deal with reality and maintain their balance. 

    So you simply gut the principle of indefectibility from its mooring and say, when a string of popes elected according to established procedure and with the universal consent of the hierarchy of cardinals and bishops have corrupted the Magisterium and promulgated a harmful Rite of Public Worship, that they are not popes, so the Magisterium remains indefectible. 

    By that standard, yeah, there could never be a corrupt Magisterium with a harmful Rite of Public Worship. But, as I said, that guts indefectibility of the reason for its provision by God to the Church in the first place: so that the faithful could rely with confidence on the teaching of the hierarchy of the Church and the means of salvation (the sacraments) that they provide for sanctification. 

    But no, that apparently is not the purpose of indefectibility. Apparently, the purpose it was provided by God was to be a wubby that Ladislaus can clutch to at night and hide under when those guys running the Church provide all kinds of false teaching and a harmful Rite of Public Worship to the rest of the Catholics in the world. 

    :facepalm:

    If the rai·son d'ê·tre of indefectibility has been eliminated it is because God has a purpose in mind that entails him using a corrupt Magisterium in these latter days, in the consummation of the age, and not because the men He is working His will through are not pope(s) and bishop(s) in the Catholic Church. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #138 on: January 23, 2023, 09:34:07 AM »
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  • And I'm going to keep writing it until some of you wake up to the fact that you've completely (and pertinaciously) embraced a heretical ecclesiology.

    This is not rocket science.  Our Lord promised the assistance of the Holy Spirit to the See of Peter, an assistance which prevents it from corrupting faith or morals.

    You have two choices to avoid heresy, 1) claim that faith and morals haven't been corrupted (that V2 was misinterpreted by Modernists and the NOM is not essentially bad but has been abused) or 2) assert that legitimate Papal authority exercised freely did not produce V2 and the NOM.

    Within #2, you have various choices, from sedevacantism, sedeprivationism, sedeimpoundism, Siri thesis, blackmailed pope, drugged pope, pope replaced by a double, etc.

    This Chair of Peter cannot fail, and to say otherwise is heretical.  Period.  End of Story.  Address it with #1 or with #2 (and any permutation of #2), but you can't simply run off and pertinaciously embrace some repackaged form of Old Catholicism / Eastern Orthodoxy / Protestantism.

    You have the temerity to refer to this Basic Foundation of Catholicism as "delusion".  Unbelievable.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #139 on: January 23, 2023, 09:37:46 AM »
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  • a corrupt Magisterium in these latter days

    Heresy, and there's a mountain of papal teaching, teaching from the Doctors of the Church, and from the Church Fathers that accuse you.




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #140 on: January 23, 2023, 10:01:57 AM »
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  • And I'm going to keep writing it until some of you wake up to the fact that you've completely (and pertinaciously) embraced a heretical ecclesiology.

    This is not rocket science.  Our Lord promised the assistance of the Holy Spirit to the See of Peter, an assistance which prevents it from corrupting faith or morals.
    Even you do not believe this because if you did, then why aren't you NO? Instead of you believing this, you choose to use it as an excuse for a vacant chair, that's why. It certainly isn't rocket science.

    The same goes for your reply to DR - you do not believe that the Magisterium is unable to be mistaken, has immunity from error and etc, instead, you choose to use it for your own purpose, as an excuse for a vacant chair.
     
    All the while flinging the proverbial "heretic" around at those trying to correct you.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #141 on: January 23, 2023, 10:22:48 AM »
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  • And I'm going to keep writing it until some of you wake up to the fact that you've completely (and pertinaciously) embraced a heretical ecclesiology.

    This is not rocket science.  Our Lord promised the assistance of the Holy Spirit to the See of Peter, an assistance which prevents it from corrupting faith or morals.

    You have two choices to avoid heresy, 1) claim that faith and morals haven't been corrupted (that V2 was misinterpreted by Modernists and the NOM is not essentially bad but has been abused) or 2) assert that legitimate Papal authority exercised freely did not produce V2 and the NOM.

    Within #2, you have various choices, from sedevacantism, sedeprivationism, sedeimpoundism, Siri thesis, blackmailed pope, drugged pope, pope replaced by a double, etc.

    This Chair of Peter cannot fail, and to say otherwise is heretical.  Period.  End of Story.  Address it with #1 or with #2 (and any permutation of #2), but you can't simply run off and pertinaciously embrace some repackaged form of Old Catholicism / Eastern Orthodoxy / Protestantism.

    You have the temerity to refer to this Basic Foundation of Catholicism as "delusion".  Unbelievable.

    There is another way. It is the way of Archbishop Lefebvre. Here's an article from the Dominicans of Avrille regarding the errors of both modernism and sedevacantism, which includes the stance of +ABL. Here's a quote from the article:

    "Currently, facing a crisis in the Church, there are two errors to avoid: modernism (which, little by little, makes us lose the faith) and sedevacantism (which leans towards schism). If we want to remain Catholic, we must pass between heresy and schism, between Scylla and Charybdis."

    Little Catechism on Sedevacantism - PART I - Dominicans of Avrille, France (dominicansavrille.us)

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #142 on: January 23, 2023, 10:57:29 AM »
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  • Little Catechism on Sedevacantism - PART I - Dominicans of Avrille, France (dominicansavrille.us)

    From the article (which I have been trying to explain to Mr. LaRosa since p.2 of this thread):

    "If a Catholic were convinced that John Paul II (or another Pope after Vatican II) is a formal, manifest heretic, should he then conclude that he is no longer pope?

    No, he should not, because according to the “common” opinion (Suarez), or even the “more common” opinion (Billuart), theologians think that even a heretical pope can continue to exercise the papacy. For him to lose his jurisdiction, the Catholic bishops (the only judges in matters of faith besides the pope, by Divine will) would have to make a declaration denouncing the pope’s heresy.

    Quote
    Quote “According to the more common opinion, Christ, by a particular providence, for the common good and the tranquility of the Church, continues to give jurisdiction to an even manifestly heretical pontiff until such time as he should be declared a manifest heretic by the Church” (Billuart, De Fide, diss. V, a. III, § 3, obj. 2).

    Now, in so serious a matter, it is not prudent to go against the common opinion.

    But how can a heretic, who is no longer a member of the Church, be its leader or head?

    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, basing his reasoning on Billuart, explains in his treatise De Verbo Incarnato (p. 232) that a heretical pope, while no longer a member of the Church, can still be her head. Indeed, what is impossible in the case of a physical head is possible (albeit abnormal) for a secondary moral head. “The reason is that – whereas a physical head cannot influence the members without receiving the vital influx of the soul – a moral head, as is the [Roman] Pontiff, can exercise jurisdiction over the Church even if he does not receive from the soul of the Church any influx of interior faith or charity.”

    In short, the pope is constituted a member of the Church by his personal faith, which he can lose, but he is head of the visible Church by jurisdiction and authority that can co-exist with heresy.


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #143 on: January 23, 2023, 11:07:35 AM »
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  • There is another way. It is the way of Archbishop Lefebvre. Here's an article from the Dominicans of Avrille regarding the errors of both modernism and sedevacantism, which includes the stance of +ABL. Here's a quote from the article:

    "Currently, facing a crisis in the Church, there are two errors to avoid: modernism (which, little by little, makes us lose the faith) and sedevacantism (which leans towards schism). If we want to remain Catholic, we must pass between heresy and schism, between Scylla and Charybdis."

    Little Catechism on Sedevacantism - PART I - Dominicans of Avrille, France (dominicansavrille.us)
    Actually Meg, Lad makes for himself, and then puts himself in a fallacious and inescapable corner of his own free will with his "You have two choices..."

    Then he posts authentic, de fide teachings from popes declaring the infallibility of the Church's Magisterium. That the magisterium is unable to err truly is the foundation upon which everything remains standing. This he should (is actually bound to) accept and make his permanent, never changing starting point which from there, everything must completely and totally conform.

    Instead, he uses the Magisterium's infallibility in such a way as to be contrary to what the popes teach the Magisterium is - always infallible. The odd thing is, the result of doing this is always the same - either a magisterium that errs, and/or a vacant chair....and me, you and all who "just don't get it" are Old Catholics and heretics who hate the Church.
     
    Same tired old thing.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #144 on: January 23, 2023, 11:34:22 AM »
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  • Actually Meg, Lad makes for himself, and then puts himself in a fallacious and inescapable corner of his own free will with his "You have two choices..."

    Then he posts authentic, de fide teachings from popes declaring the infallibility of the Church's Magisterium. That the magisterium is unable to err truly is the foundation upon which everything remains standing. This he should (is actually bound to) accept and make his permanent, never changing starting point which from there, everything must completely and totally conform.

    Instead, he uses the Magisterium's infallibility in such a way as to be contrary to what the popes teach the Magisterium is - always infallible. The odd thing is, the result of doing this is always the same - either a magisterium that errs, and/or a vacant chair....and me, you and all who "just don't get it" are Old Catholics and heretics who hate the Church.
     
    Same tired old thing.


    :facepalm: Seriously?!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #145 on: January 23, 2023, 11:38:52 AM »
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  • From the article (which I have been trying to explain to Mr. LaRosa since p.2 of this thread):

    "If a Catholic were convinced that John Paul II (or another Pope after Vatican II) is a formal, manifest heretic, should he then conclude that he is no longer pope?

    No, he should not, because according to the “common” opinion (Suarez), or even the “more common” opinion (Billuart), theologians think that even a heretical pope can continue to exercise the papacy. For him to lose his jurisdiction, the Catholic bishops (the only judges in matters of faith besides the pope, by Divine will) would have to make a declaration denouncing the pope’s heresy.

    Now, in so serious a matter, it is not prudent to go against the common opinion.

    But how can a heretic, who is no longer a member of the Church, be its leader or head?

    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, basing his reasoning on Billuart, explains in his treatise De Verbo Incarnato (p. 232) that a heretical pope, while no longer a member of the Church, can still be her head. Indeed, what is impossible in the case of a physical head is possible (albeit abnormal) for a secondary moral head. “The reason is that – whereas a physical head cannot influence the members without receiving the vital influx of the soul – a moral head, as is the [Roman] Pontiff, can exercise jurisdiction over the Church even if he does not receive from the soul of the Church any influx of interior faith or charity.”

    In short, the pope is constituted a member of the Church by his personal faith, which he can lose, but he is head of the visible Church by jurisdiction and authority that can co-exist with heresy.

    Sean, I need to point out two important facts: It is certainly NOT the common opinion and never ever was. To say that the bishops can judge the pope, if he is in fact the pope, is heretical.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #146 on: January 23, 2023, 11:42:08 AM »
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  • Sean, I need to point out one important fact: It is certainly NOT the common opinion and never ever was.

    "Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #147 on: January 23, 2023, 12:01:12 PM »
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  • To say that the bishops can judge the pope, if he is in fact the pope, is heretical.

    Incorrect: As has been discussed in this thread, the pope can be the subject of a discretionary judgment, but not a coercive judgment.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #148 on: January 23, 2023, 12:42:24 PM »
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  • :facepalm: Seriously?!
    Certainly. If I thought it would make a bit of difference I'd go back and post more of his posts of him doing what I just said he does, but his #1 and #2 suffices. Suffice to say that when you start with a false premise you end up with a vacant chair every time. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #149 on: January 23, 2023, 01:52:21 PM »
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  • Incorrect: As has been discussed in this thread, the pope can be the subject of a discretionary judgment, but not a coercive judgment.

    What's incorrect is your improper application of the distinction.  If one is merely assessing the fact that the Pope has left the Church and lost authority, that means he's already ceased to be pope a priori to the judgment (Bellarmine), but if your judgment comes a priori to the loss of office, you're effectively deposing a Pope.  Your position and that of S&S entails precisely such a coercive judgment, which is why St. Robert Bellarmine rejects it.  You can argue Bellarmine vs. Cajetan all you want ... and it's a distraction from the real issue at hand and the one that confronts the consciences of Catholics ... it doesn't change the fact that a legitimate Pope freely exercising the Papal Magisterium cannot effect the corruption of the Magisterium, doctrinal or moral teaching, the Church's public worship, the cultus of the saints, etc.  And this is precisely why, IMO, the infiltrators allowed Siri to accept the papal election and then forced him out.  Had they simply gotten their guy Roncalli elected without this prior impediment to legitimate election, the Holy Spirit would have prevented Roncalli, Montini, and Wojtyla from perpetrating their destruction, even if it meant causing them to drop dead before they could do so.