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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 37922 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2023, 04:21:45 PM »
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  • You also oppose Pope Vigilius:

    “The heretic, even though he has not been condemned formally by any individual, in reality brings anathema on himself, having cut himself off from the way of truth by his heresy.”
    (Second Council of Constantinople, 553) [Emphasis mine]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #61 on: January 17, 2023, 04:28:23 PM »
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  • No where did you prove that pertinacity must be established by the Church and only by the Church before a heretic is separated from the Church.  Instead, you directly oppose Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis where he states the sin of heresy by its nature separates one from the Church.  Here is the quote again:

    “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23) [Emphases mine]

    Complete refutation: Your blunder here is in not distinguishing between the crime of heresy, and the sin of heresy.

    SS explain:

    Later on, we will discuss the question of how a heretical prelate loses his jurisdiction/office, which is not the same question as how heresy severs a person from the Church (these are two distinct issues). This will include important material that we have never published before, as well as recently translated material from St. Bellarmine that refutes Fr. Kramer’s and the Sedevacantists’ interpretation and application of his opinion concerning a heretical Pope, and confirms precisely what we have been arguing for years.

    Full explanation here: 

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/exposing-theerrors-of-fr.html?m=1
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #62 on: January 17, 2023, 04:49:12 PM »
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  • You also oppose Pope Vigilius:

    “The heretic, even though he has not been condemned formally by any individual, in reality brings anathema on himself, having cut himself off from the way of truth by his heresy.”
    (Second Council of Constantinople, 553) [Emphasis mine]

    "The first thing to note is that Pius XII [or Vigilius in the quote provided] is not addressing how, or what is required, for a Pope who falls into heresy to lose his office/jurisdiction. That is not what is being discussed, nor is the subject touched upon anywhere in the encyclical. How a heretical bishop or Pope loses his office, and how heresy separates a Catholic from the Church, are two separates questions, and each question has different distinctions that apply (the loss of office due to heresy will be addressed in Part III). Pius XII is simply repeating the centuries-old teaching that heresy, schism and apostasy sever a person from the Church of their nature, whereas other sins do not."

    Complete refutation here: http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/formal-reply-to-fr-framer-part-ii.html

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #63 on: January 17, 2023, 04:53:31 PM »
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  • What is most interesting to me is that, in all the aforesaid arguments of Catholic Knight (and his mentor, Fr. Kramer), they are 100% relying upon the arguments of sedevacantists (mostly Speray) to make their argument.

    The only real difference between them is their argument over who was the first antipope, John XXIII or Francis.

    Yet the continual rejection of being called a sedevacantist, despite the fact that:

    1) They reject the claim of Francis to the See;

    2) They do not believe anyone else has a legitimate claim to the See;

    3) They will not accept whomever else is elected in the future for all perpetuity;

    4) And Kramer and Co. rely 100% upon Speray/sedevacantist polemics to defend their position.

    But they are certainly not sedevacantists.

    ;)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #64 on: January 17, 2023, 05:42:04 PM »
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  • CK: Proving that you have not understood the meaning of Popes Pius XII and Vigilius (for the reasons previously mentioned, namely, confounding the sin of heresy with the crime of heresy, and stemming from this, conflating the loss of membership in the Church with loss of jurisdiction and office), I'm hoping you will be receptive to the words of the eminent Cardinal Billuart and Pope Martin V:

    Pope Martin V would be quite surprised to learn he stands condemned by Vigilius (Billuart as well)!



    Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757)
    Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith.
    ~ Article 3 ~
    "I say that manifest heretics, unless they are denounced by name, or themselves depart from the Church, retain their jurisdiction and validly absolve.  This is proved by the Bull of Martin V, Ad evitanda scandala, [which reads thus]:
    Quote
    Quote 'To avoid the scandals and the many perils that can befall timorous consciences, we mercifully grant to the faithful of Christ, by the force of this decree (tenore praesentium), that henceforth no one will be obliged, under the pretext of any sentence or ecclesiastical censure generally promulgated by law or by man, to avoid the communion of any person, in the administration or reception of the Sacraments, or in any other matters sacred or profane, or to eschew the person, or to observe any ecclesiastical interdict, unless a sentence or censure of this kind shall have been published by a judge, and denounced specially and expressly, whether against a person, or a college, or university, or church, or a certain place or territory.  Neither the Apostolic Constitutions, nor any other laws remain in force to the contrary.'
    "Then [the Bull] lists, as the only exception, those who are notorious for having inflicted violence on the clergy.  From these lines, we argue that the Church is granting permission to the faithful to receive the sacraments from heretics who have not yet been expressly denounced by name; and, therefore, that she allows the latter to retain their jurisdiction for the valid administration of the sacraments, since otherwise the concession granted to the faithful would mean nothing.
    "Our argument is confirmed by the current praxis of the entire Church; for no one today ... avoids his pastor, even for the reception of the sacraments, as long as he is allowed to remain in his benefice, even if the man is, in the judgment of all or at least of the majority, a manifest Jansenist, and rebellious against the definitions of the Church; and so on with the rest.
    "I have said in my thesis, 'unless they depart from the Church of their own accord'; for, by the fact that they depart from the Church, they renounce her jurisdiction, and as a result we infer that the Church does not continue to give it to them.  ...  If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord.
    "Nor does it follow from this—as if there were parity—that no one should be considered a public sinner unless denounced; or that, consequently, the Eucharist cannot be denied to any sinners except those who have been denounced.  The difference is, first of all, that the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.  But the Church does not require a denunciation for someone to be considered a public sinner, or to be repelled from Communion, because the welfare and tranquility of the faithful do not require that.  Also, it is not the business of the faithful to pass judgment on the jurisdiction of their ministers, and often it is impossible for them to do so; but this pertains to the superiors who grant the ministers their jurisdiction.  It pertains to the ministers, however, to pass judgment on those who receive the sacraments. ...

    "The pope… does not have his jurisdiction from the Church, but from Christ.  Nowhere has it been declared that Christ would continue to give jurisdiction to a manifestly heretical Pope, since his heresy could become known to the Church, and the Church could provide another pastor for herself.  Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/thefollowing-excerpt-from-charles-rene.html
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #65 on: January 17, 2023, 06:00:12 PM »
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  • CK: Proving that you have not understood the meaning of Popes Pius XII and Vigilius (for the reasons previously mentioned, namely, confounding the sin of heresy with the crime of heresy, and stemming from this, conflating the loss of membership in the Church with loss of jurisdiction and office), I'm hoping you will be receptive to the words of the eminent Cardinal Billuart and Pope Martin V:

    Pope Martin V would be quite surprised to learn he stands condemned by Vigilius (Billuart as well)!



    Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757)
    Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith.
    ~ Article 3 ~
    "I say that manifest heretics, unless they are denounced by name, or themselves depart from the Church, retain their jurisdiction and validly absolve.  This is proved by the Bull of Martin V, Ad evitanda scandala, [which reads thus]:
    "Then [the Bull] lists, as the only exception, those who are notorious for having inflicted violence on the clergy.  From these lines, we argue that the Church is granting permission to the faithful to receive the sacraments from heretics who have not yet been expressly denounced by name; and, therefore, that she allows the latter to retain their jurisdiction for the valid administration of the sacraments, since otherwise the concession granted to the faithful would mean nothing.
    "Our argument is confirmed by the current praxis of the entire Church; for no one today ... avoids his pastor, even for the reception of the sacraments, as long as he is allowed to remain in his benefice, even if the man is, in the judgment of all or at least of the majority, a manifest Jansenist, and rebellious against the definitions of the Church; and so on with the rest.
    "I have said in my thesis, 'unless they depart from the Church of their own accord'; for, by the fact that they depart from the Church, they renounce her jurisdiction, and as a result we infer that the Church does not continue to give it to them.  ...  If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord.
    "Nor does it follow from this—as if there were parity—that no one should be considered a public sinner unless denounced; or that, consequently, the Eucharist cannot be denied to any sinners except those who have been denounced.  The difference is, first of all, that the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.  But the Church does not require a denunciation for someone to be considered a public sinner, or to be repelled from Communion, because the welfare and tranquility of the faithful do not require that.  Also, it is not the business of the faithful to pass judgment on the jurisdiction of their ministers, and often it is impossible for them to do so; but this pertains to the superiors who grant the ministers their jurisdiction.  It pertains to the ministers, however, to pass judgment on those who receive the sacraments. ...

    "The pope… does not have his jurisdiction from the Church, but from Christ.  Nowhere has it been declared that Christ would continue to give jurisdiction to a manifestly heretical Pope, since his heresy could become known to the Church, and the Church could provide another pastor for herself.  Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/thefollowing-excerpt-from-charles-rene.html

    Sounds a lot like what a bit later was codified as Can. 2264, eh (you know, like what I said way back on p. 1)?


    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #66 on: January 17, 2023, 09:51:21 PM »
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  • Complete refutation: Your blunder here is in not distinguishing between the crime of heresy, and the sin of heresy.
       
    Sin is essential to crime, but crime is not essential to sin.  Crime needs sin, but sin does not need crime.  Therefore, every crime is a sin, but not every sin is a crime.  It follows, then, that the crime of heresy is contingent on the sin of heresy, but the sin of heresy is not contingent on the crime of heresy.  The crime of heresy exists only because it is defined as such by the Church in her Canon Law.  If the Church did not define heresy as a crime it would not exist as a crime, but the sin of heresy exists regardless.  Pertinacity in heresy is what is required to make the sin of heresy "formal" (i.e., a real offence against God).  Otherwise, the sin of heresy would only be “material” and hence not a real offence against God.  So what we have is that pertinacity is required for the sin of heresy and the sin of heresy is required for the crime of heresy.  Now since the sin of heresy exists with or without the crime of heresy and the crime of heresy need not exist at all, pertinacity essentially belongs, then, only to the sin of heresy.  But in her Canon Law, the Church does not judge pertinacity for the end of the sin of heresy but for the end of the crime of heresy.  The individual, however, may judge pertinacity, with the existence of sufficient evidence, for end of the sin of heresy.  And it is this sin of heresy that Pope Pius XII states in Mystici Corporis that, of its own nature, separates one from the Church.  And this is true regardless of the crime of heresy.      
     



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #67 on: January 17, 2023, 09:54:19 PM »
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  •  
    Sin is essential to crime, but crime is not essential to sin.  Crime needs sin, but sin does not need crime.  Therefore, every crime is a sin, but not every sin is a crime.  It follows, then, that the crime of heresy is contingent on the sin of heresy, but the sin of heresy is not contingent on the crime of heresy.  The crime of heresy exists only because it is defined as such by the Church in her Canon Law.  If the Church did not define heresy as a crime it would not exist as a crime, but the sin of heresy exists regardless.  Pertinacity in heresy is what is required to make the sin of heresy "formal" (i.e., a real offence against God).  Otherwise, the sin of heresy would only be “material” and hence not a real offence against God.  So what we have is that pertinacity is required for the sin of heresy and the sin of heresy is required for the crime of heresy.  Now since the sin of heresy exists with or without the crime of heresy and the crime of heresy need not exist at all, pertinacity essentially belongs, then, only to the sin of heresy.  But in her Canon Law, the Church does not judge pertinacity for the end of the sin of heresy but for the end of the crime of heresy.  The individual, however, may judge pertinacity, with the existence of sufficient evidence, for end of the sin of heresy.  And it is this sin of heresy that Pope Pius XII states in Mystici Corporis that, of its own nature, separates one from the Church.  And this is true regardless of the crime of heresy.     


    I think you are outmaneuvering yourself again.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #68 on: January 18, 2023, 06:50:54 AM »
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  • I think you are outmaneuvering yourself again.

    Earlier I wrote, «Salza & Siscoe now claim: “The external act of heresy is, by its nature, a crime.” This proposition is patently false: The nature of a crime in ecclesiastical law is of an external and morally imputable violation of a law or precept. It does not pertain to the nature of heresy that it is ”an external and morally imputable violation of a law [an ecclesiastical law] or precept”; and therefore, the proposition is false. The external act of heresy is a sin, and not a crime.»

    The fallacious Salza/Siscoe argument that external heresy is in its nature an ecclesiastical crime, is that since, according to Canon Law the external act of heresy conforms to the specifications required for an act to qualify as a crime, external heresy is therefore, in its nature a crime. The nonsensical fallacy of their thinking is exposed in the consideration that what pertains to the definition of a crime, does not intrinsically pertain to the nature of exernal heresy (whether considered formally in its specific nature as heresy or materially in its generic nature as an external act); and therefore, the external act of heresy is not in its nature a crime. Heresy in its nature is directly and per se opposed to faith, but it is not in its nature intrinsically opposed to ecclesiastical law, since the penal sanction added to it in ecclesiastical law is an accidental circuмstance extrinsic to its nature. Salza & Siscoe fallaciously argue that since external heresy falls within the parameters of the definition of a crime in canon law (i.e. an external violation of a law or precept, etc.), external heresy is consequently by definition a crime, and therefore it is in its intrinsic nature a crime. The false conclusion is based on an elementary error of logic: External heresy is indeed a crime because it falls within the parameters of the canonical definition of a delict; but that only accidently qualifies external heresy as a crime, because the specifications of the nature of a crime which fall within the canonical definition of a crime do not fall within the canonical or theological definition of heresy. Being a crime is an accidental quality of external heresy due to the circuмstance that external heresy is a delict according to ecclesiastical law; but that quality does not pertain per se to the essential nature of external heresy, because its being an external violation of a penal law does not pertain to the definition of external heresy as it is defined in canon law and moral theology. Furthermore, to be a crime, the external act must be morally imputable; and hence, the merely material and therefore inculpable external act of heresy is not a crime; and therefore, it follows necessarily that the act of external heresy is manifestly not in its nature a crime. Additionally (as is explained below), to be a crime, it does not suffice that it violate a precept of divine law, but it must also violate an ecclesiastical law or precept; and therefore, without a law or precept of ecclesiastical law, or at least a divine law to which is added a penal censure, the external act is not a delict, nor is it punishable in the external forum by the Church. Thus, it is patent, that the external act of heresy per se, is not in its nature a crime.

    All text above is from the following:

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #69 on: January 18, 2023, 07:04:13 AM »
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  • CK: Proving that you have not understood the meaning of Popes Pius XII and Vigilius (for the reasons previously mentioned, namely, confounding the sin of heresy with the crime of heresy, and stemming from this, conflating the loss of membership in the Church with loss of jurisdiction and office), I'm hoping you will be receptive to the words of the eminent Cardinal Billuart and Pope Martin V:

    Pope Martin V would be quite surprised to learn he stands condemned by Vigilius (Billuart as well)!



    Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757)
    Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith.
    ~ Article 3 ~
    "I say that manifest heretics, unless they are denounced by name, or themselves depart from the Church, retain their jurisdiction and validly absolve.  This is proved by the Bull of Martin V, Ad evitanda scandala, [which reads thus]:
    "Then [the Bull] lists, as the only exception, those who are notorious for having inflicted violence on the clergy.  From these lines, we argue that the Church is granting permission to the faithful to receive the sacraments from heretics who have not yet been expressly denounced by name; and, therefore, that she allows the latter to retain their jurisdiction for the valid administration of the sacraments, since otherwise the concession granted to the faithful would mean nothing.
    "Our argument is confirmed by the current praxis of the entire Church; for no one today ... avoids his pastor, even for the reception of the sacraments, as long as he is allowed to remain in his benefice, even if the man is, in the judgment of all or at least of the majority, a manifest Jansenist, and rebellious against the definitions of the Church; and so on with the rest.
    "I have said in my thesis, 'unless they depart from the Church of their own accord'; for, by the fact that they depart from the Church, they renounce her jurisdiction, and as a result we infer that the Church does not continue to give it to them.  ...  If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord.
    "Nor does it follow from this—as if there were parity—that no one should be considered a public sinner unless denounced; or that, consequently, the Eucharist cannot be denied to any sinners except those who have been denounced.  The difference is, first of all, that the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.  But the Church does not require a denunciation for someone to be considered a public sinner, or to be repelled from Communion, because the welfare and tranquility of the faithful do not require that.  Also, it is not the business of the faithful to pass judgment on the jurisdiction of their ministers, and often it is impossible for them to do so; but this pertains to the superiors who grant the ministers their jurisdiction.  It pertains to the ministers, however, to pass judgment on those who receive the sacraments. ...

    "The pope… does not have his jurisdiction from the Church, but from Christ.  Nowhere has it been declared that Christ would continue to give jurisdiction to a manifestly heretical Pope, since his heresy could become known to the Church, and the Church could provide another pastor for herself.  Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/thefollowing-excerpt-from-charles-rene.html

    Still awaiting your response.

    As you can see, the Church soon adopted the position of Billuart, which found its way into Can. 2264 (as I said all the way back on p.1).

    Checkmate.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #70 on: January 18, 2023, 07:21:06 AM »
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  • Sounds a lot like what a bit later was codified as Can. 2264, eh (you know, like what I said way back on p. 1)?


    :popcorn:

    This quote deals with the jurisdiction necessary for valid administration of the Sacraments, which the Church regularly grants to non-Catholics ... not with ordinary or habitual jurisdiction.  So, for instance, the Church grants Orthodox priests ad hoc (I forget the Canon Law term at the moment) jurisdiction to validly administer the Sacrament of Confession to a dying Catholic, and at one point St. Pius X permitted Catholics living in Orthodox territories to receive the Sacraments for the Orthodox, thus again providing the necessary ad hoc (vs. habitual jurisdiction), granted only for the specific purpose of validly absolving the penitent.  Similarly, Bergoglio (assuming he were capable of it) granted the SSPX jurisdiction to validly absolve penitents.

    Thus, for instance, if Bergoglio were a valid priest, even if he's a manifest heretic, he would be able to validly absolve penitents.

    Did you miss this part?  Or did you just ignore it because it undermines your argument?
    Quote
    [The Church] allows the latter to retain their jurisdiction for the valid administration of the sacraments

    This passage clearly indicates that it's a case of the Church ALLOWING jurisdiction only for the purpose of valid administration of the Sacraments that require jurisdiction for the good of the faithful.

    :popcorn:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #71 on: January 18, 2023, 07:25:24 AM »
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  • Thus, for instance, Cardinal Cushing was clearly a manifest heretic.  Nevertheless, since he was not removed from office by Rome, the priests in his diocese retained the jurisdiction to validly absolve in the Sacrament of Confession.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #72 on: January 18, 2023, 07:30:13 AM »
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  • This quote deals with the jurisdiction necessary for valid administration of the Sacraments, which the Church regularly grants to non-Catholics ... not with ordinary or habitual jurisdiction.  So, for instance, the Church grants Orthodox priests ad hoc (I forget the Canon Law term at the moment) jurisdiction to validly administer the Sacrament of Confession to a dying Catholic, and at one point St. Pius X permitted Catholics living in Orthodox territories to receive the Sacraments for the Orthodox, thus again providing the necessary ad hoc (vs. habitual jurisdiction), granted only for the specific purpose of validly absolving the penitent.  Similarly, Bergoglio (assuming he were capable of it) granted the SSPX jurisdiction to validly absolve penitents.

    Thus, for instance, if Bergoglio were a valid priest, even if he's a manifest heretic, he would be able to validly absolve penitents.

    Did you miss this part?  Or did you just ignore it because it undermines your argument?
    This passage clearly indicates that it's a case of the Church ALLOWING jurisdiction only for the purpose of valid administration of the Sacraments that require jurisdiction for the good of the faithful.

    :popcorn:

    I prefer to believe the quote means exactly what it says it means (ie., exactly what LaRosa and other sedes deny):

    That unless a declaratory or condemnatory declaration is made, the heretic retains his jurisdiction, and consequently the faithful may licitly and validly approach them.

    This is precisely what Fr. Chazal denies, and what LaRosa/Kramer (now that they are sedes) oppose, each a bit differently:

    Chazal: The pope retains jurisdiction, but because he is a heretic, it is not licit to use it (error).

    LaRosa/Kramer: The pope has no jurisdiction at all, because his heresy has placed himself outside the Church (error).

    Martin V/Billuart and most other classical theologians: Even an heretical pope retains his jurisdiction unless a declaratory….
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #73 on: January 20, 2023, 11:17:22 AM »
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  • This quote deals with the jurisdiction necessary for valid administration of the Sacraments, which the Church regularly grants to non-Catholics ... not with ordinary or habitual jurisdiction. 

    Exactly.  A public manifest formal heretic does not have ordinary (habitual) jurisdiction.  I made that distinction (after not making it) to Mr. Johnson in a previous post.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #74 on: January 20, 2023, 11:41:25 AM »
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  • Exactly.  A public manifest formal heretic does not have ordinary (habitual) jurisdiction.  I made that distinction (after not making it) to Mr. Johnson in a previous post.

    False.

    Billuart:

    "Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

    If Christ is CONTINUING to give the jurisdiction He has already been giving (i.e., ordinary), then what is discussed is clearly ordinary jurisdiction.

    It is only after the heretic is declared that his jurisdiction becomes illicit (though still valid via ecclesia supplet), which is the whole argument of the Billuart/Martin V quote.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."