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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 42285 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2023, 12:27:54 PM »
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  • You are outmaneuvering yourself.

    Let me repeat:

    "According to the late Canon Gregory Hesse, who held a Ph.D. in canon law and Thomistic theology, a formal heretic in the external forum is a declared heretic."

    "Salza & Co. fraudulently quote Fr. Gregor Hesse against me on the point of defection from the faith and the Church. In order to deceive their readers into believing that Fr. Hesse was of the same opinion as Salza/Siscoe, who maintain that heretics are not severed from the Church without a judgment from Church authority, they quote Dr. Hesse’s words which explain that 'there is no formal schism unless it is declared schism'. Salza & Siscoe oafishly interpret the theologian’s words to mean that there is no schism unless the Church authority declares it! Long before the days of YouTube, by which Salza & Siscoe access the words of Fr. Gregory, I lived in Rome and earned my degrees at the same Pontifical University where he earned his theological degrees. We spent many evenings together in Rome discussing Philosophy, Theology, and ecclesiastical issues. We met many times afterward in Canada, USA, Vienna, Rome, Los Angeles, Belize, etc. – we were the closest of friends from 1975 to 2006. (We first met on the assembly line at the Mercedes-Benz factory in Germany while working at our summer jobs in 1975) No one on earth knows the theological mind of Fr. Gregor Hesse as well as I do. It was I who suggested and convinced him to write his doctoral thesis on the Theology of Chesterton. What Fr. Gregor was saying (and any academically qualified theologian knows this), is that for someone to be a schismatic, that one must declare himself to be separated, either by words or actions, and not the other way around."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.  Footnote 721.



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #31 on: January 10, 2023, 12:32:04 PM »
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  • "Salza & Co. fraudulently quote Fr. Gregor Hesse against me on the point of defection from the faith and the Church. In order to deceive their readers into believing that Fr. Hesse was of the same opinion as Salza/Siscoe, who maintain that heretics are not severed from the Church without a judgment from Church authority, they quote Dr. Hesse’s words which explain that 'there is no formal schism unless it is declared schism'. Salza & Siscoe oafishly interpret the theologian’s words to mean that there is no schism unless the Church authority declares it! Long before the days of YouTube, by which Salza & Siscoe access the words of Fr. Gregory, I lived in Rome and earned my degrees at the same Pontifical University where he earned his theological degrees. We spent many evenings together in Rome discussing Philosophy, Theology, and ecclesiastical issues. We met many times afterward in Canada, USA, Vienna, Rome, Los Angeles, Belize, etc. – we were the closest of friends from 1975 to 2006. (We first met on the assembly line at the Mercedes-Benz factory in Germany while working at our summer jobs in 1975) No one on earth knows the theological mind of Fr. Gregor Hesse as well as I do. It was I who suggested and convinced him to write his doctoral thesis on the Theology of Chesterton. What Fr. Gregor was saying (and any academically qualified theologian knows this), is that for someone to be a schismatic, that one must declare himself to be separated, either by words or actions, and not the other way around."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.  Footnote 721.

    The passage you quoted pertains to schism, not to heresy.

    PS: But at least now I know who I am arguing with. ;)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #32 on: January 13, 2023, 04:14:48 PM »
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  • The passage you quoted pertains to schism, not to heresy.

    PS: But at least now I know who I am arguing with. ;)

    Heresy or apostasy or schism incur automatic excommunication.  Also, read the first part of Fr. Kramer's comment.  He is speaking about heresy in that part.  Regardless, are you sure that Salza and Siscoe quoted Fr. Hesse correctly?

    My advice to you is to stop listening to Salza and Siscoe who, according to Fr. Kramer, have no formal learning in theology and do not read Latin.  Rather, get Fr. Kramer's two volume set (so far).  From those volumes, you will learn from someone who studied at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in the 1970s under the Dominicans, and has refuted Salza and Siscoe on many points.  Salza is the same man who now says the SSPX is in schism.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #33 on: January 13, 2023, 04:26:59 PM »
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  • Heresy or apostasy or schism incur automatic excommunication.  Also, read the first part of Fr. Kramer's comment.  He is speaking about heresy in that part.  Regardless, are you sure that Salza and Siscoe quoted Fr. Hesse correctly?

    My advice to you is to stop listening to Salza and Siscoe who, according to Fr. Kramer, have no formal learning in theology and do not read Latin.  Rather, get Fr. Kramer's two volume set (so far).  From those volumes, you will learn from someone who studied at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in the 1970s under the Dominicans, and has refuted Salza and Siscoe on many points.  Salza is the same man who now says the SSPX is in schism.

    God bless, Father.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #34 on: January 16, 2023, 11:18:37 AM »
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  • “St. Robert Bellarmine, commenting on the fourth opinion in De Romano Pontifice liber ii cap. xxx, quotes St. Jerome (d. 420 AD), one of the four major Latin Fathers, who teaches with the unanimous consensus of the Fathers, ‘Jerome comments on the same place, saying that other sinners, through a judgment of excommunication are excluded from the Church; heretics, however, leave by themselves and are cut from the body of Christ‘. Bellarmine states explicitly that the heretic is cut off from the body of the Church before any sentence of excommunication comes into effect: ‘Yet heretics are outside the Church, even before excommunication, and deprived of all jurisdiction, for they are condemned by their own judgment, as the Apostle teaches to Titus; that is, they are cut from the body of the Church without excommunication, as Jerome expresses it.'”
    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition. [Emphases in original]


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #35 on: January 16, 2023, 11:35:45 AM »
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  • “St. Robert Bellarmine, commenting on the fourth opinion in De Romano Pontifice liber ii cap. xxx, quotes St. Jerome (d. 420 AD), one of the four major Latin Fathers, who teaches with the unanimous consensus of the Fathers, ‘Jerome comments on the same place, saying that other sinners, through a judgment of excommunication are excluded from the Church; heretics, however, leave by themselves and are cut from the body of Christ‘. Bellarmine states explicitly that the heretic is cut off from the body of the Church before any sentence of excommunication comes into effect: ‘Yet heretics are outside the Church, even before excommunication, and deprived of all jurisdiction, for they are condemned by their own judgment, as the Apostle teaches to Titus; that is, they are cut from the body of the Church without excommunication, as Jerome expresses it.'”
    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition. [Emphases in original]

    S&S spent a lot of time trying to argue that St. Robert Bellarmine held the same opinion as Cajetan, despite the fact that Bellarmine explicitly rejected Cajetan's position.

    St. Robert's example of Pope St. Celestine and Nestorius is conclusive.

    That's why just a couple months ago Salza was on an interview with Dr. Robert Sungenis where he mentioned that he was studying the Pope St. Celestine situation.  Why would he be studying it years after writing the book?  It's because that example is fatal to his entire argument.

    Anything else entails the Church passing judgment on and issuing a sentence against a Pope, and it's heretical to suggest that the rest of the Church could do that.

    Another argument is that the Church can sever the link betwen the man and the office, but that's also unacceptabble.  This dovetails with sedeprivtionism, which holds that the office is lost but this material link betwee the two remains until severed by the Church, the link being the Church's designation of who should hold the office, and then upon whom God confers the formal office.  SPism makes the most sense to me.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #36 on: January 16, 2023, 11:53:21 AM »
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  • S&S spent a lot of time trying to argue that St. Robert Bellarmine held the same opinion as Cajetan, despite the fact that Bellarmine explicitly rejected Cajetan's position.

    St. Robert's example of Pope St. Celestine and Nestorius is conclusive.

    That's why just a couple months ago Salza was on an interview with Dr. Robert Sungenis where he mentioned that he was studying the Pope St. Celestine situation.  Why would he be studying it years after writing the book?  It's because that example is fatal to his entire argument.

    What was the gist of St. Bellarmine's example of Pope St. Celestine and Nestorius?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #37 on: January 16, 2023, 12:00:18 PM »
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  • What was the gist of St. Bellarmine's example of Pope St. Celestine and Nestorius?

    St. Robert cited the example of Pope St. Celestine, as (one piece of) evidence for his position.  Pope St. Celestine had declared that Nestorius had lost the authority (to excommunicate at least) even before he was formally removed from office, from the moment he began "preaching" heresy.  He said that one who "should be excommunicated" does not have power to excommunicate.  This actually bolsters sedeprivationism, that there's an in-between state where someone becomes a "deponendus" without having been officially or legally "depositus".  This is also consistent with Father Chazal's position that such a heretic pope would remain "impounded", i.e. in a state of suspension.

    So in the case of a pope, the Church designates the candidate (material aspect), while God bestows the authority (formal aspect).  Once this union between the man and the office occurs, it cannot be forcibly severed.  But God removes the authority (formal aspect) after the man become incapable of exercising it (having ceased to be a member of the Church), and at that point the Church can un-designate (material aspect) the individual and then designate (elect) someone else.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #38 on: January 16, 2023, 12:12:14 PM »
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  • St. Robert cited the example of Pope St. Celestine, as (one piece of) evidence for his position.  Pope St. Celestine had declared that Nestorius had lost the authority (to excommunicate at least) even before he was formally removed from office, from the moment he began "preaching" heresy.  He said that one who "should be excommunicated" does not have power to excommunicate.  This actually bolsters sedeprivationism, that there's an in-between state where someone becomes a "deponendus" without having been officially or legally "depositus".  This is also consistent with Father Chazal's position that such a heretic pope would remain "impounded", i.e. in a state of suspension.

    So in the case of a pope, the Church designates the candidate (material aspect), while God bestows the authority (formal aspect).  Once this union between the man and the office occurs, it cannot be forcibly severed.  But God removes the authority (formal aspect) after the man become incapable of exercising it (having ceased to be a member of the Church), and at that point the Church can un-designate (material aspect) the individual and then designate (elect) someone else.

    Thank you for the information.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #39 on: January 16, 2023, 03:37:42 PM »
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  • “St. Robert Bellarmine, commenting on the fourth opinion in De Romano Pontifice liber ii cap. xxx, quotes St. Jerome (d. 420 AD), one of the four major Latin Fathers, who teaches with the unanimous consensus of the Fathers, ‘Jerome comments on the same place, saying that other sinners, through a judgment of excommunication are excluded from the Church; heretics, however, leave by themselves and are cut from the body of Christ‘. Bellarmine states explicitly that the heretic is cut off from the body of the Church before any sentence of excommunication comes into effect: ‘Yet heretics are outside the Church, even before excommunication, and deprived of all jurisdiction, for they are condemned by their own judgment, as the Apostle teaches to Titus; that is, they are cut from the body of the Church without excommunication, as Jerome expresses it.'”
    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition. [Emphases in original]

    Perhaps you have misunderstood, since St. Robert already said prior to that (commenting on the 2nd opinion of Torquemada):

    "For jurisdiction is surely given by God to the Pontiff, but with the cooperation of human activity [i.e., the Cardinals who elected him], as is clear, because that man, who beforehand was not Pope, has acquired from men that he would begin to be Pope; therefore, it is not removed by God unless it is through men."

    St. Robert Bellarmine (About the Roman Pontiff, Book 2, Chapter 30).

    The explanation is simple (and has already been explained to you, vis-a-vis Can. 2264): The heretic's acts remain valid and licit until/unless a condemnatory/declaratory sentence is declared.

    Of course this entire conversation is merely academic, since you have not (and cannot) establish the fact of Francis's heresy (i.e., vs other theological censures, such as "proximate to heresy," "erroneous," "next to error," etc.). 

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03532a.htm

    Before you cast Francis out of the Church, you'd better be sure you are up to speeed here first!  Most aren't.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #40 on: January 17, 2023, 06:51:15 AM »
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  • “Hence, if anyone shall dare — which God forbid! — to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.”
    (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, 1854) [Emphases mine]


    The heretic is condemned by his own judgement and separated from the Church.  Any penalties established by the Church in her law (e.g., automatic excommunication) are in addition to the heretic’s self-condemnation. 



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #41 on: January 17, 2023, 07:08:35 AM »
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  • “Hence, if anyone shall dare — which God forbid! — to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.”
    (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, 1854) [Emphases mine]


    The heretic is condemned by his own judgement and separated from the Church.  Any penalties established by the Church in her law (e.g., automatic excommunication) are in addition to the heretic’s self-condemnation. 

    What kind of heretic would that be?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #42 on: January 17, 2023, 07:56:26 AM »
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  • What kind of heretic would that be?

    "After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic;"
    (Canon 1325 § 2, 1917 Code of Canon Law)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #43 on: January 17, 2023, 08:02:01 AM »
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  • "After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic;"
    (Canon 1325 § 2, 1917 Code of Canon Law)

    There’s that pesky word “pertinacious” again. 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #44 on: January 17, 2023, 08:25:14 AM »
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  • There’s that pesky word “pertinacious” again.

    Pertinacity can be determined by one who does not have jurisdiction over the heretic in question.