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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59238 times)

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2023, 05:21:35 PM »
But Van Noort makes a distinction for public, manifest heresy, and it's not an irrelevant distinction . . . or does Sisco think it's irrelevant? If it was, why bother making the distinction?

**** I mean the distinction between internal, occult heresy and public, manifest heresy. For example, why does Van Noort not say that the internal heretic is not a member of the Church?

I could not tell you why Van Noort doesn't say what he doesn't say.

Could you please rearticulate precisely what your argument is, and how it opposes the position of SS, or whomever you are directing it to?

As SS say (and contrary to whatever Fr. Kramer says), Van Noort is on the side of SS:

"Van Noort: “Internal heresy, since it destroys that interior unity of faith from which unity of profession is born, separates from the body of the Church dispositively, but not yet formally.” (Dogmatic Theology, Volume II, Christ’s Church, p. 242.)

Van Noort’s interpretation of Mystici Corporis Christi, as well as his theology concerning how the internal sin of heresy severs a person from the Body of the Church (i.e., dispositively) reflects our position perfectly! In fact, Van Noort’s three-volume set of dogmatic manuals was one of the primary theological sources we consulted when writing our chapters on ecclesiology in True or False Pope?"

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2023, 05:33:41 PM »
I could not tell you why Van Noort doesn't say what he doesn't say.

Could you please rearticulate precisely what your argument is, and how it opposes the position of whomever you are directing it to?

As SS say, and contrary to whatever Fr. Kramer says, Van Noort is on the side of SS:

"Van Noort: “Internal heresy, since it destroys that interior unity of faith from which unity of profession is born, separates from the body of the Church dispositively, but not yet formally.” (Dogmatic Theology, Volume II, Christ’s Church, p. 242.)

Van Noort’s interpretation of Mystici Corporis Christi, as well as his theology concerning how the internal sin of heresy severs a person from the Body of the Church (i.e., dispositively) reflects our position perfectly! In fact, Van Noort’s three-volume set of dogmatic manuals was one of the primary theological sources we consulted when writing our chapters on ecclesiology in True or False Pope?"

Siscoe mentions a body/soul distinction regarding links to the Church. An internal heretic lacks the spiritual bond with Christ: he is not spiritually joined to the soul of the Church. He, as Quo noted in accordance with the thinking of St. Robert and most theologians, remains a member of the body of the Church, the external communion.

The public, material heretic, however, is not joined to the body and hence not a member: he is alien to the external communion. He is joined neither to the soul or the body of the Church.

This is why Van Noort does not say the internal heretic is not a member of the Church, but does say that the public, manifest heretic is not a member. 




Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2023, 05:45:52 PM »
Siscoe mentions a body/soul distinction regarding links to the Church. An internal heretic lacks the spiritual bond with Christ: he is not spiritually joined to the soul of the Church. He, as Quo noted in accordance with the thinking of St. Robert and most theologians, remains a member of the body of the Church, the external communion.

The public, material heretic, however, is not joined to the body and hence not a member: he is alien to the external communion. He is joined neither to the soul or the body of the Church.

This is why Van Noort does not say the internal heretic is not a member of the Church, but does say that the public, manifest heretic is not a member. 


I'm not sure what this has to do with LaRosa's argument.

His position is that since Francis is (allegedly) a public manifest heretic, he is outside the Church, and cannot therefore be its pope (i.e., a reformulation of the classical sedevacantist maxim, "He who is not part of the body cannot be its head").

The problem -as I've been showing since p.1- is that Mr. LaRosa has no idea what a public manifest heretic is.  He thinks its just someone who says something heretical in front of a bunch of people (i.e., He's imputing colloquial definitions to canonical and theological terms to arrive at false conclusions).

Suarez: “in no case, even that of heresy, is the Pontiff deprived of his dignity and of his power immediately by God himself, before the judgment and sentence of men. This is the common opinion today”.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2023, 07:27:51 AM »
I'm not sure what this has to do with LaRosa's argument.

His position is that since Francis is (allegedly) a public manifest heretic, he is outside the Church, and cannot therefore be its pope (i.e., a reformulation of the classical sedevacantist maxim, "He who is not part of the body cannot be its head").

The problem -as I've been showing since p.1- is that Mr. LaRosa has no idea what a public manifest heretic is.  He thinks its just someone who says something heretical in front of a bunch of people (i.e., He's imputing colloquial definitions to canonical and theological terms to arrive at false conclusions).

Suarez: “in no case, even that of heresy, is the Pontiff deprived of his dignity and of his power immediately by God himself, before the judgment and sentence of men. This is the common opinion today”.

Sean,

You posted a Siscoe article where he claimed that Van Noort supported his position; he doesn't, and that's why I responded. All Van Noort does, which Siscoe does, is refer to "internal heresy" and a "dispositive" separation from the Church for it. So what? A theologian uses two terms you use doesn't mean he supports you on the critical issue, which is whether some Church action is necessary for removal or rejection of a heretical pope.

Of course "internal heresy" separates someone from the Church "dispositively." No one's arguing that. But "internal heresy" does not separate one from the body of the Church, i.e. the external communion. The issue is whether public, manifest heresy, not "internal heresy," separates one from the body of the Church, i.e. the external communion. Siscoe's quotes from Van Noort do not support his position on that. That is the point of my posting. So Siscoe's quoting of Van Noort to show that a theologian agrees with him simply by referring to the separation "dispositively" of an "internal heretic" is irrelevant to the ultimate issue and it is false and deceptive for Siscoe to quote that theologian when he doesn't agree with him on the point of contention.

So, I wasn't responding to the "LaRosa argument" but to a specific post and what it claimed to indicate, which it didn't.

I'll go back and look at the "LaRosa" issue and perhaps comment on that.

DR

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2023, 07:59:13 AM »
Sean,

In looking over the thread, in my recent engagement I was responding to post #90. Again, Van Noort does not support Sicscoe's argument.

DR