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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59502 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #75 on: January 20, 2023, 11:57:41 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 18, 2023, 07:21:06 AM
This quote deals with the jurisdiction necessary for valid administration of the Sacraments, 

Pope Martin V (cited by Billuart says the opposite):

"no one will be obliged, under the pretext of any sentence or ecclesiastical censure generally promulgated by law or by man, to avoid the communion of any person, in the administration or reception of the Sacraments, or in any other matters sacred or profane, or to eschew the person, or to observe any ecclesiastical interdict..."

Clearly, Martin V is not limiting his statement on the retention of jurisdiction to the administration of the sacraments.

If he is therefore retaining his jurisdiction in all other matters besides sacramental administration, as the pope says, we are clearly talking about ordinary jurisdiction.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #76 on: January 20, 2023, 12:13:14 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 20, 2023, 11:41:25 AM
False.

Billuart:

"Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

If Christ is CONTINUING to give the jurisdiction He has already been giving (i.e., ordinary), then what is discussed is clearly ordinary jurisdiction.

It is only after the heretic is declared that his jurisdiction becomes illicit (though still valid via ecclesia supplet), which is the whole argument of the Billuart/Martin V quote.

"All variations of Opinion No. 4, whether of Cajetan, Suárez, John of St. Thomas, Billuart, Laymann, etc., are no longer admissible, because they offend against the doctrine of Mystici Corporis on the nature of heresy severing one suapte natura from the Church; and offend against the injudicability of the pope defined in Pastor Æternus."

Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #77 on: January 20, 2023, 12:14:55 PM »
Again:

“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
(Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23) [Emphases mine]
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #78 on: January 20, 2023, 12:17:21 PM »
Quote from: Catholic Knight on January 20, 2023, 12:13:14 PM
"All variations of Opinion No. 4, whether of Cajetan, Suárez, John of St. Thomas, Billuart, Laymann, etc., are no longer admissible, because they offend against the doctrine of Mystici Corporis on the nature of heresy severing one suapte natura from the Church; and offend against the injudicability of the pope defined in Pastor Æternus."

Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

Fr. Kramer's errors regarding his failure to distinguish between discretionary judgments and coercive judgments have already been discussed above, and are at the core of his error regarding Vatican I.

As regards his errors on Mystici Corporis, please see here: http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/formal-reply-to-fr-framer-part-ii.html 
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Offline Meg

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #79 on: January 20, 2023, 12:54:40 PM »
Quote from: Catholic Knight on January 20, 2023, 12:14:55 PM
Again:

“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
(Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23) [Emphases mine]

Does the above quote intentionally and specifically pertain to the Pope? 
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