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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59849 times)

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Offline Mr G

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2023, 01:18:15 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2023, 01:12:39 PM
Since you keep citing yourself: 



I doubt very much "CatholicKnight" is Fr. Kramer, he is most likely Tony La Rossa.
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2023, 01:22:58 PM »
Quote from: Mr G on January 17, 2023, 01:18:15 PM
I doubt very much "CatholicKnight" is Fr. Kramer, he is most likely Tony La Rossa.

One or the other.  I was waiting for a declaration from CK that he was not Fr. Kramer.  We'll see if that is forthcoming or not.  Fr. Kramer has showed up here before under a different alius.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2023, 01:55:44 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2023, 12:39:41 PM
Revs. Bouscaren-Ellis define pertinacity under Can. 1325 §2 as follows: “[In the definition of a heretic] pertinaciter does not imply duration, nor violence; it simply means setting up one’s mind against the known mind of the Church.”

It follow that the Church has established pertinacity, only if the heretic has been made aware of his error by authority, as St. Bellarmine states:

“The authority is that of Blessed Paul, who in his Epistle to Titus, chapter 3, orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is after he clearly appears pertinacious [crime under Church law], and he understands (by this) before any excommunication and judicial sentence; as Jerome writes regarding this passage, where he states that other sinners are excluded from the Church through a sentence of excommunication, but heretics depart from and are cut off from the Body of Christ through themselves” [consequence under Divine law].

First of all, setting up one's mind against the known mind of the Church simply means to oppose a doctrine divinely revealed and as the Church defines and understands that doctrine.  Hence, it does NOT follow from Fr. Bouscaren-Ellis' definition that the Church is the one that must establish pertinacity before a judgment of pertinacity can be reached by the simple layman, for example.

Secondly, St. Robert Bellarmine in your quote is distinguishing between those who are only suspect of heresy, which would require canonical warnings, vs. those whose pertinacity in heresy is plainly evident (i.e., cut off from the Body of Christ themselves).  The consequence of the latter falls under Divine Law.  That's why I wrote earlier that heresy per se separates the public manifest formal heretic from the Church.    The consequence of the former falls under Church Law (i.e., establishing the crime).  
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2023, 02:00:55 PM »
Quote from: Catholic Knight on January 17, 2023, 01:55:44 PM
First of all, setting up one's mind against the known mind of the Church simply means to oppose a doctrine divinely revealed and as the Church defines and understands that doctrine.  Hence, it does NOT follow from Fr. Bouscaren-Ellis' definition that the Church is the one that must establish pertinacity before a judgment of pertinacity can be reached by the simple layman, for example.

Secondly, St. Robert Bellarmine in your quote is distinguishing between those who are only suspect of heresy, which would require canonical warnings, vs. those whose pertinacity in heresy is plainly evident (i.e., cut off from the Body of Christ themselves).  The consequence of the latter falls under Divine Law.  That's why I wrote earlier that heresy per se separates the public manifest formal heretic from the Church.    The consequence of the former falls under Church Law (i.e., establishing the crime). 

Nope. 

One whose pertinacity is clearly established is not under mere suspicion, and for the Church to have established it, means they have already declared it.

How this is all so is contained in the SS article I posted subsequently.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2023, 04:18:56 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 17, 2023, 02:00:55 PM
Nope.

One whose pertinacity is clearly established is not under mere suspicion, and for the Church to have established it, means they have already declared it.

How this is all so is contained in the SS article I posted subsequently.

No where did you prove that pertinacity must be established by the Church and only by the Church before a heretic is separated from the Church.  Instead, you directly oppose Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis where he states the sin of heresy by its nature separates one from the Church.  Here is the quote again:

“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
(Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23) [Emphases mine]
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