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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 37573 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #495 on: March 25, 2023, 09:21:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on March 25, 2023, 08:37:59 AM
    He would be called a non-Catholic.

    How is it that a non-Catholic can receive the sacrament of penance? Is there a specific church teaching which addresses this? And no, I'm not talking about Fr. Kramer's writings. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #496 on: March 26, 2023, 06:01:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 17, 2023, 11:25:26 AM
    Fr. Kramer would do better to explain to those who've fallen into his same error, how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.

    Great point Stubborn.  What your comment reveals is that there is a difference between someone who has been baptized in the Church, or received into the Church after baptism, and a person that has never been a Catholic.   If a person that has been received into the Church falls into heresy, all he has to do is confess it to be reconciled with the Church.  The only exception is one who was declared a heretic by the Church.  In that case, he would also need to have the declaration lifted.

    As long as the Catholic remains in external union with the Church, he remains a true member of the Church (one opinion), or at least a member in appearance only (second opinion). Those who hold the second opinion (e.g., Suarez, Cajetan, Franzeline, John of St. Thomas) admit that being a member in appearance only suffices to hold office in the Church and to retain jurisdiction. The point being, all admit that if a cleric falls into the sin of formal heresy and loses the faith, they will retain their office and jurisdiction as long as they remain externally united to the Church.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #497 on: March 26, 2023, 06:20:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on March 25, 2023, 09:21:31 AM
    How is it that a non-Catholic can receive the sacrament of penance? Is there a specific church teaching which addresses this? And no, I'm not talking about Fr. Kramer's writings.

    In Treatise 3, Book 2, Chapter 2, Article 3 (Reasons that Separate a Baptized Person from the Body of the Church), Thesis 26, Salaverri states the following in Sacrae Theologiae Summa:

    "A heretic, apostate and schismatic by the fact itself; and a person excommunicated by legitimate authority are separated from the body of the Church."

    In Paragraph 1052 under Thesis 26, he states the following in regards to the opinion of theologians:

    "That formal and manifest heretics are not members of the body of the Church can well be said to be the unanimous opinion among Catholics."

    In Paragraph 1056 under Thesis and titled "Doctrine of the Church", he states the following:

    "Part 1 is implicitly defined by the Council of Florence in the Decree for the Jacobites: D 1351. But concerning heretics and apostates we deduce our doctrine also from the formula of faith of the 'Clemens Trinitas,' from canon 23 of Lateran Council II, and from the Bull of Pius IX 'Ineffabilis Deus': D 74, 718, 2804."

    Part 1 is in reference to the first part of Thesis 26, which is "a heretic, apostate, and schismatic by the fact itself" (are separated from the Body of the Church).

    If one is separated from the Body of the Church, then he is a non-Catholic.  How a non-Catholic who was formerly Catholic receives the Sacrament of Penance is that he renounces his heresy in the Sacrament of Penance and follows the direction of the priest.

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #498 on: March 26, 2023, 07:00:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on March 26, 2023, 06:20:03 PM
    In Treatise 3, Book 2, Chapter 2, Article 3 (Reasons that Separate a Baptized Person from the Body of the Church), Thesis 26, Salaverri states the following in Sacrae Theologiae Summa:

    "A heretic, apostate and schismatic by the fact itself; and a person excommunicated by legitimate authority are separated from the body of the Church."

    In Paragraph 1052 under Thesis 26, he states the following in regards to the opinion of theologians:

    "That formal and manifest heretics are not members of the body of the Church can well be said to be the unanimous opinion among Catholics."

    In Paragraph 1056 under Thesis and titled "Doctrine of the Church", he states the following:

    "Part 1 is implicitly defined by the Council of Florence in the Decree for the Jacobites: D 1351. But concerning heretics and apostates we deduce our doctrine also from the formula of faith of the 'Clemens Trinitas,' from canon 23 of Lateran Council II, and from the Bull of Pius IX 'Ineffabilis Deus': D 74, 718, 2804."

    Part 1 is in reference to the first part of Thesis 26, which is "a heretic, apostate, and schismatic by the fact itself" (are separated from the Body of the Church).

    If one is separated from the Body of the Church, then he is a non-Catholic.  How a non-Catholic who was formerly Catholic receives the Sacrament of Penance is that he renounces his heresy in the Sacrament of Penance and follows the direction of the priest.

    What is described above appears to apply only to those who are formally accused and found guilty of heresy, schism, apostacy. And this does not apply to the problem at hand....where a Pope supposedly loses his office ipso facto, and there is no formal censure.

    You are the one who believes, do you not, that a Pope guilty of heresy loses his office automatically, with no notice or censure needed?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Veritas et Caritas

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #499 on: March 26, 2023, 08:43:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on March 26, 2023, 06:20:03 PM
    If one is separated from the Body of the Church, then he is a non-Catholic.  

    Those who remain in external union with the Church are not separated from the Body of the Church.  Alnd all of the recent popes have remained in external union with the Church.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #500 on: March 27, 2023, 05:10:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on March 26, 2023, 06:20:03 PM
    If one is separated from the Body of the Church, then he is a non-Catholic.  How a non-Catholic who was formerly Catholic receives the Sacrament of Penance is that he renounces his heresy in the Sacrament of Penance and follows the direction of the priest.
    Sorry, but this fails miserably since the Church does not permit non-Catholics to even enter the confessional.


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    Back to reply #231...
    One who is not a Catholic cannot receive the Sacraments. The excommunicated Catholic can receive the Sacrament of Penance, whereby the censure can be removed, and the sin be forgiven. The Church first removes the censure, then forgives the sin...

    May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication,
    (suspension), and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
    (The word suspensionis {suspension} is used only for clerics. A cleric may be suspended without being excommunicated; but, should he incur excommunication, he is suspended also.)..."


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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #501 on: March 27, 2023, 05:48:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: PaxVobis on March 26, 2023, 06:01:15 PM
    Great point Stubborn.  What your comment reveals is that there is a difference between someone who has been baptized in the Church, or received into the Church after baptism, and a person that has never been a Catholic.  If a person that has been received into the Church falls into heresy, all he has to do is confess it to be reconciled with the Church.  The only exception is one who was declared a heretic by the Church.  In that case, he would also need to have the declaration lifted.

    As long as the Catholic remains in external union with the Church, he remains a true member of the Church (one opinion), or at least a member in appearance only (second opinion). Those who hold the second opinion (e.g., Suarez, Cajetan, Franzeline, John of St. Thomas) admit that being a member in appearance only suffices to hold office in the Church and to retain jurisdiction. The point being, all admit that if a cleric falls into the sin of formal heresy and loses the faith, they will retain their office and jurisdiction as long as they remain externally united to the Church.
    Well, this is the dilemma. 

    The sedes, for obvious reasons, must incorporate "all heretics are non-members" into their doctrine. Yet despite the fact that we often see language in encyclicals etc. which suggests this, there is the above truth which, as such, cannot be denied. Only Catholics, members of the Church can receive the sacrament of penance. Period.

    It is because this cannot be denied that like you, I opine the language we read in encyclicals etc. must pertain only to those who have never been Catholic, and also to those formally declared to be a heretic and excommunicated - but even among them there is the exception provided where the danger of death is imminent.

    One thing that is certain, is the idea of the Church kicking out a sinner, any sinner, is altogether contrary to the Church's mission and purpose. St. Thomas says the primary purpose of excommunication is medicinal, whereas the sedes' idea of excommunication is primarily punishment.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #502 on: September 16, 2023, 05:15:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 26, 2023, 06:37:30 PM
    "Blind obedience is not Catholic; nobody is exempt from responsibility for having obeyed man rather than God if he accepts orders from a higher authority, even a Pope, when these are contrary to the Will of God as it is known from certainty from Tradition. It is true that one cannot envisage such an eventuality when papal infallibility is engaged; but this happens only in a limited number of cases. It is an error to think that every word uttered by a Pope is infallible."
    This would also apply to those who ignore infallible definitions such as the ones from Pope Eugene IV at Florence and Pope Siricius which deny any notion of BoD and BoB.
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #503 on: December 29, 2023, 04:29:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 26, 2023, 09:03:10 AM
    The difference is huge:

    Sedes reject the authority of the Roman Pontifff in principle.

    Resistance (old SSPX) accept it in principle.
    You’ve got to be joking.

    Which group is constantly providing teachings of the Magisterium in defense of the rights of the Roman Pontiff over the universal Church to teach, rule and sanctify the faithful? 

    almost never R&R. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #504 on: December 29, 2023, 05:01:53 PM »
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    • Yikes, this "obey God rather than man" stuff is scary non-Catholic thinking.  When a Pope teaching, he's acting as Christ's Vicar.  This is not about Jorge spewing nonsense on his pope-plane or in an interview with Scalfari, but about the man you claim to be the Vicar of Christ teaching with the authority of St. Peter, which is the authority of Christ.

    So, is this an absolute statement?  Old Catholics decided they were obeying God rather than man in rejecting papal infallibility as contrary to Tradition.  Were they obeying God rather than man also?  If so, how can you find fault with them?  On what basis?

    Let those who claim this maxim applies to Papal authority explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.  This should be interesting.
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