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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 24516 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #480 on: March 12, 2023, 05:58:37 PM »
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  • “Bellarmine is clear and explicit on this general point: that the separation from the body of the Church, as well as loss of office and all jurisdiction, are accomplished by the very act of heresy, ex natura hæresis, and not by the judgment of the Church, or as a penalty for an ecclesiastical delict. This sententia is de fide regarding firstly the separation from the Church, in virtue of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers, 2) the teaching of the universal magisterium set forth in the Roman Catechism, and, 3) the teaching of Pius XII in Mystici Corporis; and secondly, it is de fide regarding the loss of office and jurisdiction, because of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers on this point which Bellarmine amply demonstrates in his refutation of Opinion No. 4, and 2) the canonical doctrine of the Church proposed by the papal ordinary magisterium in Canon 188. 4°; which, therefore, qualifies it as a doctrine pertaining to the universal and ordinary magisterium. Thus, it is not a mere question of law, but of definitive magisterial doctrine that heretics and schismatics are separated from the Church by their own actions suapte natura, apart from any ecclesiastical law or judgment; and that the consequent loss of office and jurisdiction is not the result of any penal sanction or any judgment pronounced by the Church, but is the direct effect of the act of defection from the Church, sine alia vi externa; which therefore, not by any human law, takes place ex natura hæresis or ex natura schismatis.”

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

    "Definitive magisterial doctrine". Poor Father Kramer. Why then did the Church tolerate so many 'heretics' among her distinguished theologians for so many centuries after Bellarmine?


    Offline trento

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #481 on: March 14, 2023, 12:02:59 PM »
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  • "Definitive magisterial doctrine". Poor Father Kramer. Why then did the Church tolerate so many 'heretics' among her distinguished theologians for so many centuries after Bellarmine?
    Didn't Fr. Chazal associate with Fr. Kramer for some time? Have they separated because of Fr. Kramer's Bennyvacantism?


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #482 on: March 14, 2023, 06:44:48 PM »
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  • Didn't Fr. Chazal associate with Fr. Kramer for some time? Have they separated because of Fr. Kramer's Bennyvacantism?
    Yes, sadly, he did. I'm fairly sure he was staying at Fr Chazal's Philippines seminary at one stage. Perhaps that was part of Father Chazal's motivation to write Contra Cekadam. Apparently Fr Kramer had a very large BV following in Ireland. I wonder what they all believe now...

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #483 on: March 14, 2023, 07:06:09 PM »
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  • "Definitive magisterial doctrine". Poor Father Kramer. Why then did the Church tolerate so many 'heretics' among her distinguished theologians for so many centuries after Bellarmine?

    Not sure if Father Kramer is anti-Feeneyite, but if he were to sound off in that regard it would be nice to note this to him at such a time.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #484 on: March 15, 2023, 06:23:16 PM »
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  • "Definitive magisterial doctrine". Poor Father Kramer. Why then did the Church tolerate so many 'heretics' among her distinguished theologians for so many centuries after Bellarmine?

    Yes.  It is definitive magisterial doctrine.  It seems that you have not been paying attention to what has been placed in front of you.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #485 on: March 15, 2023, 06:23:56 PM »
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  • Not sure if Father Kramer is anti-Feeneyite, but if he were to sound off in that regard it would be nice to note this to him at such a time.

    Fr. Kramer opposes Feeneyism.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #486 on: March 15, 2023, 06:29:49 PM »
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  • Yes.  It is definitive magisterial doctrine.  It seems that you have not been paying attention to what has been placed in front of you.
    God bless you, CK, we read things differently. 

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #487 on: March 15, 2023, 06:32:15 PM »
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  • God bless you, CK, we read things differently.

    Yes.  I read it right and you read it wrong.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #488 on: March 15, 2023, 07:20:42 PM »
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  • Yes.  I read it right and you read it wrong.
    Lord, that I may see!  

    My God, make us to be of one mind in the truth and of one heart in charity (St Pius X) - Raccolta, Ind 300d

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #489 on: March 17, 2023, 11:16:14 AM »
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  • Lord, that I may see! 

    My God, make us to be of one mind in the truth and of one heart in charity (St Pius X) - Raccolta, Ind 300d

    With all due respect, Fr. Paul Kramer has exhaustively written in his two volumes to demonstrate that it is definitive magisterial doctrine that the pubic sin of manifest formal heresy separates the heretic from the Church, and consequently any cleric holding office automatically loses that office and the jurisdiction that comes with it.  On my part, I have given you many quotations from his works and also the quote from Pope Pius XII and the theologians that reiterated his teaching that heresy by its nature separates one from the Church.  Yet you still question whether it is definitive magisterial teaching as if Fr. Kramer just pulled what he wrote out of thin air.  My suggestion to you is to read his works and then rebut if you don't agree. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #490 on: March 17, 2023, 11:25:26 AM »
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  • With all due respect, Fr. Paul Kramer has exhaustively written in his two volumes to demonstrate that it is definitive magisterial doctrine that the pubic sin of manifest formal heresy separates the heretic from the Church, and consequently any cleric holding office automatically loses that office and the jurisdiction that comes with it.  On my part, I have given you many quotations from his works and also the quote from Pope Pius XII and the theologians that reiterated his teaching that heresy by its nature separates one from the Church.  Yet you still question whether it is definitive magisterial teaching as if Fr. Kramer just pulled what he wrote out of thin air.  My suggestion to you is to read his works and then rebut if you don't agree.
    Fr. Kramer would do better to explain to those who've fallen into his same error, how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #491 on: March 18, 2023, 07:38:56 AM »
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  • Fr. Kramer would do better to explain to those who've fallen into his same error, how a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wishes to repent, can (and is urged by the Church) to walk into the confessional, confess his sins, and receive absolution if he is not a member.

    One who was baptized in the Catholic Church and then separates himself from the Catholic Church by the public sin of manifest formal heresy can return to her through confession and receive absolution.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #492 on: March 18, 2023, 08:50:14 AM »
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  • One who was baptized in the Catholic Church and then separates himself from the Catholic Church by the public sin of manifest formal heresy can return to her through confession and receive absolution.

    Is one who is baptized but who separates himself from the Catholic Church by heresy still considered Catholic, in your view? If not, then what would he be called, if not Catholic? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #493 on: March 18, 2023, 08:56:10 AM »
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  • One who was baptized in the Catholic Church and then separates himself from the Catholic Church by the public sin of manifest formal heresy can return to her through confession and receive absolution.
    Which is to say, exactly the same as any other Catholic who separates himself from the Catholic Church by sinning.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #494 on: March 25, 2023, 08:37:59 AM »
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  • Is one who is baptized but who separates himself from the Catholic Church by heresy still considered Catholic, in your view? If not, then what would he be called, if not Catholic?

    He would be called a non-Catholic.