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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59262 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #475 on: February 25, 2023, 10:01:41 AM »
Also, Fr Hesse, who was an actual canon lawyer, has given his opinion on all these matters.  The 'pope heresy' question is not as clear-cut as you think.  The pope is above canon law, which means all those arguments about 'ipso facto' are meaningless.  What's left is the OPINION of St Bellarmine and historical papal docuмents which kindof apply but not exactly.  So what we're left with is a bunch of gray area. 
Actually, Fr. Hesse says the pope is *not* above canon law, that if the pope wants to do something contrary to canon law he must first go in and change the law...

"The Pope, just like any other human being, is bound to the Ten Commandments. The Pope is bound to the Canon Law that he published and signed. If there’s something in the Canon Law that he published and he doesn’t like it, then he has to change Canon Law as far as possible. But he cannot say, “Yes, well, sure, I signed the Canon Law of 1983, but I’m the Pope and I don’t have to follow it.” Wrong, wrong, wrong. The Pope has to follow the Ten commandments, the will of Christ, the Tradition of the Church and his own Canon Law." -  Obedience and the Pope, 
Fr. Gregory Hesse

Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #476 on: February 25, 2023, 10:51:30 AM »

Quote
Actually, Fr. Hesse says the pope is *not* above canon law, that if the pope wants to do something contrary to canon law he must first go in and change the law...
Yes and no.  If you're talking about canon law rules to govern/run the church, you are correct.  Because canon law is human law, which can change and be changed.  It is human rules to govern the human side of the Church. 


If you're talking about using canon law to judge the pope and remove him from office (and that's what i'm talking about) then it doesn't work, because of the famous adage:  "The first see is judged by no one."  And that's the issue and why St Bellarmine and all the other theologians debated and debated and debated.  


Offline Stubborn

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #477 on: February 25, 2023, 11:28:52 AM »
Yes and no.  If you're talking about canon law rules to govern/run the church, you are correct.  Because canon law is human law, which can change and be changed.  It is human rules to govern the human side of the Church.


If you're talking about using canon law to judge the pope and remove him from office (and that's what i'm talking about) then it doesn't work, because of the famous adage:  "The first see is judged by no one."  And that's the issue and why St Bellarmine and all the other theologians debated and debated and debated. 
I agree, the sedes however do not agree that the first see is being judged at all because the pope is a heretic, as such he is not the first see, therefore the sedes believe that they are strictly obligated to judge him as not being the first see at all. Why they feel they are strictly obligated to make this judgement actually the only mystery.

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #478 on: March 12, 2023, 04:31:11 PM »
“Mortal sin, as such, does not break the tie which binds a man as a constituent member to the visible Body which is Christ’s.  Only such a sin as public heresy, schism, or apostacy does that, and then only because such a sin breaks the tie of visible unity with the Body.”
(Fr. Joseph Bluett, S.J., “Mystical Body of Christ” and “Catholic Church” Exactly Coextensive, The Ecclesiastical Review, October 1940, pp. 324-325)



Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #479 on: March 12, 2023, 04:33:19 PM »
“Bellarmine is clear and explicit on this general point: that the separation from the body of the Church, as well as loss of office and all jurisdiction, are accomplished by the very act of heresy, ex natura hæresis, and not by the judgment of the Church, or as a penalty for an ecclesiastical delict. This sententia is de fide regarding firstly the separation from the Church, in virtue of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers, 2) the teaching of the universal magisterium set forth in the Roman Catechism, and, 3) the teaching of Pius XII in Mystici Corporis; and secondly, it is de fide regarding the loss of office and jurisdiction, because of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers on this point which Bellarmine amply demonstrates in his refutation of Opinion No. 4, and 2) the canonical doctrine of the Church proposed by the papal ordinary magisterium in Canon 188. 4°; which, therefore, qualifies it as a doctrine pertaining to the universal and ordinary magisterium. Thus, it is not a mere question of law, but of definitive magisterial doctrine that heretics and schismatics are separated from the Church by their own actions suapte natura, apart from any ecclesiastical law or judgment; and that the consequent loss of office and jurisdiction is not the result of any penal sanction or any judgment pronounced by the Church, but is the direct effect of the act of defection from the Church, sine alia vi externa; which therefore, not by any human law, takes place ex natura hæresis or ex natura schismatis.”

Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.