Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59611 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #465 on: February 13, 2023, 09:27:43 AM »
Stubborn,

I love your "stuff" and how you challenge the "hitters;" you have a nasty curveball. :laugh1:

I'd also love to hear an answer to that question too; it's a good one. Maybe there is a response but I haven't read it here. Anyway, I think your point reflects the point I've been trying to make on the heretic pope threads.

The heretic Catholic has lost the bond with Christ that only comes with possession of the Catholic faith, and in that sense he has "ipso facto" fallen out of the Church, which is the body of Christ, and is no longer a member. Yet he retains some sort of judicial or legal status in that he can walk into a confessional and simply repent, utilizing the sacraments only available to members of the Church.
There was a response a very long time ago - all I remember is that it amounted to the pope having to broadcast the Abjuration of Heresy to the world before anything else, only then could he go to confession and retake the Chair or become the pope....which fwiw, the same Apostolic Constitution sedes use as their anthem, Pope Paul IV's cuм ex,  altogether forbids and condemns that idea, he in fact explicitly decrees that anyone who has ever deviated from the faith can never hold any office. It's the inescapable conundrum doing it's job.

All that I am getting at is that you can replace the word "heretic" with every other sin (see below) and your words above, and the teaching of Pope Pius XII, will still be true.

The adulterous Catholic...
The apostate Catholic...
The schismatic Catholic

The liar Catholic...
The "had abortions" Catholic...
The bank robber Catholic...
and so on.

That's all I'm getting at.

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #466 on: February 14, 2023, 07:57:37 PM »
We knew he wasn't you - no worries Pax - - and welcome back!

Ditto to this!


Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #467 on: February 15, 2023, 01:24:16 AM »
But I have a question for you, since not all sins sever like heresy or schism (Mystici Corporis). How then are they different? Anyone in sin, any mortal sin, has lost the bond with Christ (the spiritual bond) as a result of losing his justification. Are you saying there is no difference with the sin of heresy or schism? I think Pius XII is clearly saying there is. So what's the difference?
Hey DR. If I understand your question correctly, the difference is that with apostasy, heresy and schism it is the nature of the sin that leads to exclusion from the Church, whereas with some other grave sins it is the disciplinary action of the Church authority excommunicating.

Canon George Smith explains in The Teaching of the Catholic Church, p707:

Quote
Nevertheless, the melancholy possibility must be envisaged of those who may have "cut themselves off from the structure of the Body by their own unhappy act or been severed therefrom, for very grave crimes, by the legitimate authority." (Quoting MCC)

In other words, the Church, as being a perfectly constituted society, has the right for grave reasons of excluding from membership. She may pass sentence of, or lay down conditions which involve, excommunication. This carries with it the deprivation of rights and privileges enjoyed by those in communion with the faithful. But such a juridical penalty does not wholly nullify membership of the Church, still less does it necessarily imply the final condemnation before God of the excommunicated person.

Certain sins - viz., apostasy, heresy and schism -  of their nature cut off the guilty from the living Body of Christ. Apostasy is a form of spiritual ѕυιcιdє, being the complete and voluntary abandonment of the Christian faith which one once professed. Heresy, objectively considered, is a doctrinal proposition which contradicts an article of faith; from the subjective point of view it may be defined as an error concerning the Catholic faith, freely and obstinately persisted in by a professing Christian... It can hardly be denied that those who take up any of these propositions - most evidently is this the case with the deliberate apostate - sever themselves by their own act from membership of the Church.
"It can hardly be denied" - of course, it is obvious. This is not a new teaching of Mystici Corporis, as you and I both know, DR. It is just restating common Catholic sense. It was equally obvious to Cajetan, Bellarmine, Suarez, Billuart, Garrigou-Lagrange... This contributes nothing to the theological debate as to how a heretic Pope is deposed, nor how he loses jurisdiction. It is sheer nonsense to maintain that MCC in any way addresses, let alone resolves, this age-old theological controversy.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #468 on: February 15, 2023, 12:32:15 PM »
Hey DR. If I understand your question correctly, the difference is that with apostasy, heresy and schism it is the nature of the sin that leads to exclusion from the Church, whereas with some other grave sins it is the disciplinary action of the Church authority excommunicating.

Canon George Smith explains in The Teaching of the Catholic Church, p707:
"It can hardly be denied" - of course, it is obvious. This is not a new teaching of Mystici Corporis, as you and I both know, DR. It is just restating common Catholic sense. It was equally obvious to Cajetan, Bellarmine, Suarez, Billuart, Garrigou-Lagrange... This contributes nothing to the theological debate as to how a heretic Pope is deposed, nor how he loses jurisdiction. It is sheer nonsense to maintain that MCC in any way addresses, let alone resolves, this age-old theological controversy.

PV,

The question was posed to Stubborn in the sense, "how do you explain the difference in light of your position?" 

Thanks,

DR

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #469 on: February 22, 2023, 06:17:51 PM »
This contributes nothing to the theological debate as to how a heretic Pope is deposed, nor how he loses jurisdiction. It is sheer nonsense to maintain that MCC in any way addresses, let alone resolves, this age-old theological controversy.

If it were possible for a pope to become a heretic, he would depose himself by his own act of public manifest formal heresy.  Both Codes of Canon Law recognize this and therefore state that the loss of office would occur automatically.  With the loss of office, his ordinary jurisdiction is gone too.  Any declaration by the Church would simply be a recognition of the fact of public manifest formal heresy.  That fact can be observed by the simple layman prior to the Church's judgment.