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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 37627 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #375 on: January 31, 2023, 12:01:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on January 30, 2023, 10:31:47 PM
    I agree Ladislaus, provided you hold your belief as a theory. There lies the problem.
    With my theory, Catholic Magisterium has never become corrupt, nor could it ever, in the very sense that the Church infallibly teaches, and in the very sense that the Fathers and Doctors have always taught.
    Nor has Catholic worship become harmful, it exists as it has always done.

    Curious if you follow the +Williamson track that the New Order Service produces miracles and comes from a legitimate authority?  And/or is it the product of a Freemason (Bugnini), liberals and six Protestant ministers designed to build up the Catholic Church in the world?  
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #376 on: January 31, 2023, 12:07:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on January 31, 2023, 12:01:23 AM
    Curious if you follow the +Williamson track that the New Order Service produces miracles and comes from a legitimate authority?  Or is it the product of a Freemason (Bugnini), liberals and six Protestant ministers?

    "Freemason", "liberal", "Protestant" or


    a non Catholic heretic dressed up as "pope"

    who was not a member of the Catholic Church when they elected and consecrated him

    (meaning that no election or consecration took place)?

    Somebody who according to the unanimous authority of the early Church Fathers was outside the Church?

    Not a member.

    Not Catholic.

    An "antichrist" in the words of ABL?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #377 on: January 31, 2023, 04:43:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on January 30, 2023, 06:16:50 PM
    I'm confused here.

    Stubborn, PV, Meg, Sean

    do you guys really believe a non Catholic can become pope?

    If the Dalai Lama was elected would you give him obedience?
    Actually, to be precise, the pope is a heretic, and the last 60 years proves a heretic can indeed be pope - it just does not prove it to you and the other sedes.

    Deo Gratias that fact does not mean we have lost our hope for salvation. 
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #378 on: January 31, 2023, 04:48:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on January 30, 2023, 10:38:38 PM
    I was hoping, now that I have progressed from Newbie to Junior Member (I notched up two yellow squares in this past week for those of you who didn't notice!!!) that I might get a little more respect from Lad.

    I realise now I'm deceiving myself. Sean has five of those golden stars and he doesn't get any respect either...
    You need to post a lot more and notch more yellow squares, the sooner the better please!

    And pay no attention to Lad's disrespect, he's the same way with everyone who does not agree with him and does not doubt everything. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #379 on: January 31, 2023, 04:59:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on January 30, 2023, 11:18:14 PM
    No worries, mate.  I have four of those little yellow squares

    and yet people don't answer my questions.

    I'm not a theologian or anything

    so they are very simple questions.

    Why won't people answer?


    Here are the last few that were skipped over in this thread, PV:

    Quote
    I'm confused here.

    Stubborn, PV, Meg, Sean

    do you guys really believe a non Catholic can become pope?

    If the Dalai Lama was elected would you give him obedience?

    Would you offer the Holy Sacrifice of Our Dear Lord's Body and Blood in union with the Dalai Lama?


    If not, then why is it any different with these non Catholic Antichrist "popes"?


    (Again, the term antichrist should have been written with a small "a" in the same way ABL called these popes antichrists so I apologize for that error.)

    Do you have an explanation that will help me understand this conundrum, PV?  Or Lad or Sean?

    Do I need to stop assisting at non Una cuм Masses and

    join in with Masses united to non Catholic antichrists?

    How did these antichrists get elected and consecrated

    when they were known heretics beforehand?
    Why do you say your questions go unanswered when that is not true. They've been answered alright, you just do not like the answers.

    You gave the reason why you're a sede (essentially that you cannot stomach una cuм) so I stopped asking. I do not like that answer and certainly disagree, but at least you answered. We could argue over your reason but to what end? Nothing will not change your mind - your mind was already changed when you decided sedeism is the only way to go. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #380 on: January 31, 2023, 06:25:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 31, 2023, 04:48:05 AM
    You need to post a lot more and notch more yellow squares, the sooner the better please!

    And pay no attention to Lad's disrespect, he's the same way with everyone who does not agree with him and does not doubt everything.
    Thanks, Stubborn, I need encouragement. I'm not sure I have the stomach for this!
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #381 on: January 31, 2023, 06:53:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on January 31, 2023, 06:25:20 AM
    Thanks, Stubborn, I need encouragement. I'm not sure I have the stomach for this!

    Yes, PV, stick around and hang in there. You contribute real substance; you support your posts with abundant references, which provide good material for other members to digest. 

    Stay, stay, PV!!!
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #382 on: January 31, 2023, 06:56:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 31, 2023, 04:43:04 AM
    Actually, to be precise, the pope is a heretic, and the last 60 years proves a heretic can indeed be pope - it just does not prove it to you and the other sedes.

    Deo Gratias that fact does not mean we have lost our hope for salvation.

    Thanks for responding, Stubborn.  :)

    So a pope can be a heretic and an antichrist.


    So, Stubborn, do you believe that the papal consecration took place?

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    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #383 on: January 31, 2023, 07:04:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on January 31, 2023, 06:25:20 AM
    Thanks, Stubborn, I need encouragement. I'm not sure I have the stomach for this!
    Just keep posting truth mainly for those who may be on the fence and who happen by to read this forum.
    I attached a short snip about sedeism from Who Shall Ascend? you can maybe use as a reference in your travels. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #384 on: January 31, 2023, 07:12:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on January 31, 2023, 06:56:32 AM
    Thanks for responding, Stubborn.  :)

    So a pope can be a heretic and an antichrist.


    So, Stubborn, do you believe that the papal consecration took place?
    Because it did take place, of course I believe it. If I am wrong, so what? It does not affect my hope of getting to heaven, and either way there is nothing I can do about it, so I do not waste my time concerning myself with it. Not sure why anyone would.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #385 on: January 31, 2023, 07:16:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 31, 2023, 07:12:18 AM
    Because it did take place, of course I believe it. If I am wrong, so what? It does not affect my hope of getting to heaven, and either way there is nothing I can do about it, so I do not waste my time concerning myself with it. Not sure why anyone would.

    Well, see that's what I don't understand.

    How is it possible for a non Catholic to be consecrated as pope?

    Can you explain it?
    Logged
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #386 on: January 31, 2023, 07:21:52 AM »
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    • PV-

    You just have to understand that CI is the de facto sedevacantist HQ, and that guys like you and I are posting in enemy territory.

    While it may seem like a waste of time to post here at all, there’s tons of lurkers who never post, but follow the threads, and it’s for them that we really post, not the apologist/polemicist  members.

    For example, whatever Lad might say about Billuart, or Catholic Knight about “formal public manifest heresy,” the lurkers saw rr score major points in this thread (many posted by yourself), and that’s the invisible reward that justifies posting in enemy territory:

    You do it for them.

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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #387 on: January 31, 2023, 07:26:54 AM »
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    • In his book Contra Cekadam, Fr. Chazal notes what he refers to as the traditional Dominican distinction between "per se" and "quoad nos," and says "[t]hings that have happened before God may not have yet happened before men" (page 93).

    A heretical pope both "per se," ipso facto, falls out of the Church and ceases to be pope, and yet at the same time, "quoad nos" and in the external realm, in the body, remains in the seat until removed. This should be obvious. A pope who has fallen "per se" or ipso facto from the Church, and hence from the headship of the Church, remains where he is unless either he voluntarily leaves or someone declares him to have left and removes him. This is just what happens among men, "quoad nos."

    It's somewhat similar to the case of an occult heretic, who has "per se" or "ipso facto" fallen from the Catholic Church through loss of the necessary, vital bond with God of possession of the Catholic faith, but remains part of the body unless removed by the authority upon external manifestation of his heresy. But not only the occult heretic. You can now think of many heretics, open and manifest, who remain members of the Church externally - Biden, etc.

    And if one says, but that's only in the Conciliar Church, you'd be wrong. There have been "manifest" heretics who have not been excluded by excommunication from the body, a prominent example being Erasmus. Here's what John Daly noted about Erasmus:


    Quote
    On the subject of Erasmus of Rotterdam, St. Alphonsus Liguori tells us that he called the invocation of Our Lady and of the saints idolatry; he condemned monasteries and religious vows and rules, opposed the celibacy of the clergy, jeered at indulgences, relics, feasts, fasts and even auricular confession. He went so far as to claim that man is justified by faith alone and to call into doubt the authority of the Scriptures and of the Councils. St. Alphonsus adds that Erasmus accused of audacity the granting of the name of “God” to the Holy Ghost! So it is not surprising to see St. Alphonsus quote the proverb according to which Luther hatched out the egg that Erasmus had laid. Nor is it surprising to learn from him that “several writers openly accuse Erasmus of heresy”.


    But was Erasmus for all that a heretic? He was esteemed by several popes, one of whom asked him to refute Luther. He remained a close friend of St. Thomas More. St. Alphonsus concludes in his own name, with Bernini, that Erasmus died with the character of an unsound Catholic, but not of a heretic, as he submitted all his writings to the judgement of the Church. (History of Heresies and their Refutation)

    What is quite certain is that notwithstanding his doctrines, which even before the Council of Trent could scarcely be considered excusable from the censure of heresy, notwithstanding numerous contemporary complaints and refutations, and notwithstanding his great learning, which diminished the possibility of blameless ignorance, it was and is permissible to consider Erasmus a Catholic. Were one to hold him definitely a heretic, it would follow that Pope Paul III, St. Thomas More and many other excellent Catholics remained in communion with a heretic.

    https://romeward.com/articles/239752007/heresy-in-history

    Was Erasmus a member of the Church "per se" and in the eyes of God? Did he have the internal bond with Christ which only exists with the Catholic faith? By his "manifest" beliefs and actions, he appears to have been a heretic. But he died "in communion" with popes and saints, and an external member of the Church.

    There are real examples of heretics "per se" - occult and public manifest - who remain members of the Church "quoad nos." And couple that with the practical truth, the fact, that a "heretic" pope may be elected according to prescribed law and procedure and remains in the seat with his "heresy" - occult or public manifest - until removed, voluntarily or by declaration and action by the Church upon the preexisting heresy, the reality of both "per se" heresy being there and membership "quoad nos" exisiting in the body at the same time should not be a source of these endless disputes and battles among us - R & R and Sedes, etc.

    A heretic pope is both ipso facto removed from his seat ("per se") and yet still sitting in the seat until his rear is extricated "quoad nos." If one says a pope is "ipso facto" fallen from the papacy and remains pope "quoad nos" until removed, that simply accords with the reality of what happens with a pope, or popes as it may be, who are heretics.

    As Fr. Chazal notes, there are two realities, the "per se" and the "quoad nos," and there is no inherent or logical contradiction between their simultaneous coexistence, and hence in the conceptual acknowledgement of the same.

    But let the wars continue . . .


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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #388 on: January 31, 2023, 07:32:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on January 31, 2023, 07:16:32 AM
    Well, see that's what I don't understand.

    How is it possible for a non Catholic to be consecrated as pope?

    Can you explain it?

    The same way it is possible for Erasmus the "heretic" (therefore necessarily non-Catholic) to receive Catholic burial and remain "in communion" with popes, saints and the external body of the Catholic Church while living.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #389 on: January 31, 2023, 07:50:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on January 31, 2023, 07:32:49 AM
    The same way it is possible for Erasmus the "heretic" (therefore necessarily non-Catholic) to receive Catholic burial and remain "in communion" with popes, saints and the external body of the Catholic Church while living.

    Thanks, DR.

    Wow!  That's very strange.

    So now I'm confused how that can square with what the Church Fathers unanimously declared.

    Posting it again for clarity:
    The Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church, but also that they are “ipso facto” deprived of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity. St. Cyprian (lib. 2, epist. 6) says: “We affirm that absolutely no heretic or schismatic has any power or right”; and he also teaches (lib. 2, epist. 1) that the heretics who return to the Church must be received as laymen, even though they have been formerly priests or bishops in the Church. St. Optatus (lib. 1 cont. Parmen.) teaches that heretics and schismatics cannot have the keys of the kingdom of heaven, nor bind nor loose. St. Ambrose (lib. 1 de poenit., ca. 2), St. Augustine (in Enchir., cap 65), St. Jerome (lib. cont. Lucifer.) teach the same.

    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/on-the-roman-pontiff/



    DR, do you think if they elected Erasmus the consecration would take place?  Would he have been valid matter for the consecration?

    They could elect him but the consecration simply wouldn't work would it?

    Perhaps we are not to judge if somebody is a heretic or not even when it's blatantly obvious such as if they elected and "consecrated" the Dalai Lama or Bozo the Clown?

    Well, if a priest put a twinkie on the altar and told me he "consecrated" it and tried to give it to me

    I would skiddadle out of there!

    Wouldn't you?  Would you receive a "consecrated" twinkie?

    And aren't you and the others here very, very careful to determine if your priest had a "valid consecration"?

    Why are you (and others) so concerned about your priests "valid consecration"

    but not concerned about whether or not the pope's consecration was valid?

    Is there something I'm missing?

    Also, if the pope's consecration wasn't valid then how can we be sure the bishops and priests in his lineage were validly consecrated?

    Thanks for your help on this!





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    [fon
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