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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 37934 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #225 on: January 25, 2023, 12:28:10 PM »
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  • Sean,

    For rejecting a manifest heretic?

    As Ladislaus has pointed out, the NO conservative has better grounds for calling you as a schismatic for rejecting a valid popes' liturgical reforms and canonizations, even though you hold the NO "valid."

    Mind you, I'm not saying I agree with Lad's position, which has its own problems . . . as almost all "solutions" do btw.

    DR


    I can’t find a definition for schism which includes Lad’s minutiae.

    What I do find is that one who rejects the authority of the pope to govern the universal Church is schismatic.

    This would seem to include by definition all those who deny the legitimacy of Francis, does it not?

    PS: And since the Church has not determined his pertinacity, by definition he is not a “formal manifest” heretic (as has been repeatedly discussed).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #226 on: January 25, 2023, 12:54:14 PM »
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  • ...but not his jurisdiction over the Church, as has been repeatedly shown.

    What kind of jurisdiction?


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #227 on: January 25, 2023, 12:56:10 PM »
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  • You've repeated this a few times now that the Church binds us to believe this, yet any and every Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and wants to repent, can (and must) do what *only* members of the Church are permitted (and encouraged) to do, namely, walk into the confessional, confess their sins and receive absolution, just like you have to, and I have to , and all Catholics have to.

    So by saying what you said, are you saying the Church actually permits all those outside of the Church to use her sacrament of penance?

    If the heretic is excommunicated by name by the Church, what would he have to do?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #228 on: January 25, 2023, 12:59:59 PM »
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  • Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #229 on: January 25, 2023, 01:03:38 PM »
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  • Ordinary

    Is ordinary jurisdiction inextricably bound to an office?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #230 on: January 25, 2023, 01:30:08 PM »
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  • Is ordinary jurisdiction inextricably bound to an office?

    In the case of a pope, or generally speaking?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #231 on: January 25, 2023, 01:52:04 PM »
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  • If the heretic is excommunicated by name by the Church, what would he have to do?
    That depends on the requirements of the censure or the requirements given at the time the censure was issued. According to Canon Law, no abjuration of heresy is required for absolution - unless  the bishop makes it a requirement.  I posted the canon law once but cannot find it now.

    At any rate, Fr. Wathen explains it......
    "It may surprise lay readers to learn that in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. This means, of course, that everyone who has received a censure, and everyone who is"under a censure," is a Catholic, since he goes to confession to seek its removal.....

    One who is not a Catholic cannot receive the Sacraments. The excommunicated Catholic can receive the Sacrament of Penance, whereby the censure can be removed, and the sin be forgiven. The Church first removes the censure, then forgives the sin...

    May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication,
    (suspension), and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
    (The word suspensionis {suspension} is used only for clerics. A cleric may be suspended without being excommunicated; but, should he incur excommunication, he is suspended also.)..."

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #232 on: January 25, 2023, 05:25:37 PM »
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  • In the case of a pope, or generally speaking?

    Any office divinely constituted.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #233 on: January 25, 2023, 05:33:40 PM »
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  • Any office divinely constituted.

    What is a divinely constituted office?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #234 on: January 25, 2023, 05:44:29 PM »
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  • What is a divinely constituted office?

    An office established by Jesus Christ.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #235 on: January 25, 2023, 05:46:54 PM »
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  • An office established by Jesus Christ.
    Can you name a few?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #236 on: January 25, 2023, 05:56:33 PM »
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  • Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #237 on: January 25, 2023, 06:07:35 PM »
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  • That depends on the requirements of the censure or the requirements given at the time the censure was issued. According to Canon Law, no abjuration of heresy is required for absolution - unless  the bishop makes it a requirement.  I posted the canon law once but cannot find it now.

    At any rate, Fr. Wathen explains it......
    "It may surprise lay readers to learn that in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. This means, of course, that everyone who has received a censure, and everyone who is"under a censure," is a Catholic, since he goes to confession to seek its removal.....

    One who is not a Catholic cannot receive the Sacraments. The excommunicated Catholic can receive the Sacrament of Penance, whereby the censure can be removed, and the sin be forgiven. The Church first removes the censure, then forgives the sin...

    May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication,
    (suspension), and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
    (The word suspensionis {suspension} is used only for clerics. A cleric may be suspended without being excommunicated; but, should he incur excommunication, he is suspended also.)..."
    Good post Stubborn!

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #238 on: January 25, 2023, 06:13:04 PM »
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  • Everyone is bound in conscience to hold that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church, and this without qualifications.
    I'm sorry if I've missed one of your posts, CK. Would you kindly provide the Church's precise teaching on this for me. Thanks.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #239 on: January 25, 2023, 06:37:34 PM »
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  • Is ordinary jurisdiction inextricably bound to an office?
    This is what Jone says in his Moral Theology:

    1. The subject of ordinary jurisdiction is one with whose office jurisdiction is connected by law, e.g. residential bishops...
    2. The extent of ordinary jurisdiction covers the entire district committed to one's care, and in case of superiors it extends over their subjects.
    3. The cessation of ordinary jurisdiction takes place by the loss of office; also by excommunication, interdict or suspension from office after a declaratory or condemnatory sentence (C 873)

    I guess it is the third point here that we are interested in.

    How that applies to the Pope is the issue. Exactly how and when does he lose his office? Can he remain in office but lose his jurisdiction? 

    It seems abundantly clear to me that theologians and jurists have discussed this question for centuries and the matter has never been resolved by the Magisterium.

    So, in my opinion, we are obliged to adhere to what is certain and refrain from making definitive judgements about this issue. It is certain, as Archbishop Lefebvre taught us, that no one, not even the highest member of the hierarchy, can command us to diminish our faith. Anything that anyone does or says to endanger our faith must be resisted, and this is never a schismatic attitude, to the contrary. Obedience is at the service of the Faith.