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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 37884 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #195 on: January 24, 2023, 01:16:36 PM »
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  • "Salza and Siscoe quote Billuart (who quotes Martin V’s Ad evitanda scandala) in a futile attempt to refute Bellarmine and the unanimous teaching of the Fathers....."

    "Billuart’s error consists in his failure to make a critical distinction between those who lose their jurisdiction as a result of excommunication, and those who lose it ex natura hæresis, as a consequence of defecting from the faith and the Church, and thereby losing office and jurisdiction. Bellarmine points out that the decree only applies to excommunicates."

    Is there an error there or is this quote being misinterpreted (as usual) by Salza and Siscoe?  This part (from Billuart) in the actual quotations marks seems to be a reference to the internal sin of heresy, where he's lost sanctifying grace and can still be head of the Church.  I'd like to see the actual full context of the quote.  Indeed, the head can still function after having lost the "influx of interior faith and charity", but that's not what we're talking about here, but rather loss of membership due to EXTERNAL (public manifest heresy), i.e. a physical severing of the head from the body.  If the head is severed from the body, it can certainly no longer govern / control the body.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #196 on: January 24, 2023, 01:59:55 PM »
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  • "Salza and Siscoe quote Billuart (who quotes Martin V’s Ad evitanda scandala) in a futile attempt to refute Bellarmine and the unanimous teaching of the Fathers....."

    "Billuart’s error consists in his failure to make a critical distinction between those who lose their jurisdiction as a result of excommunication, and those who lose it ex natura hæresis, as a consequence of defecting from the faith and the Church, and thereby losing office and jurisdiction. Bellarmine points out that the decree only applies to excommunicates."

    "The reason why Billuart’s failure to distinguish between those who lose their jurisdiction as a result of excommunication, and those who lose it ex natura hæresis, is of such great consequence, is that the ordinary and habitual jurisdiction of the officeholder is lost upon loss of office due to tacit resignation; but the excommunicates were provided with supplied jurisdiction in virtue of Ad evitanda scandala, and by the subsequent legislation that later replaced its provisions."

    "Billuart erroneously deduced that 'heretics retain their jurisdiction', whereas all jurisdiction is lost by heretics, ex natura hæresis; but since heretics incur excommunication latæ sententiæ, jurisdiction was supplied by the decree Ad evitanda scandala. Billuart’s failure to distinguish between retaining jurisdiction and receiving supplied jurisdiction in virtue of the law itself led him into error on the question of loss of jurisdiction of a heretic pope."

    "Billuart’s argues that since heretics retain jurisdiction 'for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful', therefore similarly, 'Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church.' Bellarmine’s words crush Billuart’s thesis: 'I say this avails to nothing. For those Fathers, when they say that heretics lose jurisdiction, do not allege any human laws which maybe did not exist then on this matter; rather, they argued from the nature of heresy.' Hence, there can be no exception by way of a 'special dispensation' from a loss of jurisdiction that results from the very nature of heresy. Heretics do not retain their jurisdiction: Jurisdiction is supplied to latæ sententiæ excommunicated heretics who not only lose all habitual jurisdiction, by their excommunication, but lose it ex natura hæresis. Billuart correctly notes that 'The pope… does not have his jurisdiction from the Church, but from Christ', but the pope would cease to be a member of the Church and lose all jurisdiction from Christ if he fell into manifest heresy; and since the pope cannot incur excommunication for so long as he remains pope, he could not receive supplied jurisdiction from such legislation as Ad evitanda scandala unless he were to fall from the Pontificate by tacit renunciation of office. Only then would he become minor quolibet catholico and accordingly incur excommunication latæ sententiæ, and straightaway receive supplied jurisdiction until his loss of office could be enforced by a declaratory sentence – but he would already have ceased to be pope."

    All of the above quotes are taken from:

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

    Why should SS quote Billuart "in a futile attempt to refute Bellarmine," when they both agree on the subject?

    Either Fr. Kramer has not understood SS's position, or he has not understood Billuart's position, or he has not understood Bellarmine's position (or he has not understood any of their positions).

    But that Billuart and Bellarmine agree has already been shown in previous pages.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #197 on: January 24, 2023, 02:03:46 PM »
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  • Fr. Chazal provides an assessment of Billuart in his book, Contra Cekadam, pg. 20. Bear in mind that Fr. Chazal is addressing Fr. Cekada:

    "Billuart, OP (1685-1757), is very clear in his own De Fide: "Nowhere is it said that Christ continues to give jurisdiction to a manifestly heretical pontiff, because this can only be known by the Church and she can avail herself of another pastor. Nevertheless, the common sentence holds that Christ, by his special deposition, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, continues to give jurisdiction to a pontiff, even manifestly heretic, until he gets declared to be a manifest heretic by the Church." (diss. IV, III, #3.obj.2)"

    "And in his 'de Fide de Regulis Fidei' Billuart pulls the carpet under the mantra of sedevacantism of ipso facto loss of office of a non-member of the Catholic Church: Billuart: "It is because in the case of heresy, and not in other cases, he loses the pontificate by the very fact of heresy: how could he stay a member of the Church if he is not a member?" (Addressing Fr. Cekada:) [I think you would not refuse to quote this part of the sentence, it sounds like you, reverend Father, but bear with us and pay attention to the rest, to what you always carefully omit]. Billuart con't: "That is why he is submitted to the judgment of the Church, not to be deposed, because he has already deposed himself through heresy and has rejected the pontificate, but to be declared heretical, and thus it may be known by the Church that he is no longer pontiff: before such declaration it is not allowed to deny him obedience, because he keeps then jurisdiction, not as a right,, as if he were still pontiff, but as a fact, God willing it thus for the common good of the Church." (diss IV, a., VIII, #2, obj. 2&6).
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #198 on: January 24, 2023, 04:19:05 PM »
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  • No, it means nothing to me when you dishonestly snip off the words which immediately precede and follow (which is tantamount to conceding Alphonsus is against you):

    “the Pope cannot be deprived of his authority by the council as if it were above him, but that he is deposed immediately by Jesus Christ, when the condition of this deposition [= the declaration of the council] is carried out as required.3

    Why do you think that by adding those words (even if the translation is accurate) change anything about *when* he is deposed? He is already deposed *before* the council meets. Just because I recognize that he isn’t a pope and you refuse to see reality, doesn’t change the fact that he isn’t a pope at the time his heresy is manifested. 


    I’ve always held that a council, whether perfect or imperfect, needs be called so it can tidy up the loose ends and officially declare him a heretic so that an election can proceed. Unfortunately for you, St. Alphonsus doesn’t support your position in the least and is just another nail in the coffin of the R&R position. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #199 on: January 24, 2023, 04:38:43 PM »
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  • Why do you think that by adding those words (even if the translation is accurate) change anything about *when* he is deposed? He is already deposed *before* the council meets. Just because I recognize that he isn’t a pope and you refuse to see reality, doesn’t change the fact that he isn’t a pope at the time his heresy is manifested.


    I’ve always held that a council, whether perfect or imperfect, needs be called so it can tidy up the loose ends and officially declare him a heretic so that an election can proceed. Unfortunately for you, St. Alphonsus doesn’t support your position in the least and is just another nail in the coffin of the R&R position.
    :facepalm:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #200 on: January 24, 2023, 04:47:28 PM »
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  • But that Billuart and Bellarmine agree has already been shown in previous pages.

    If they agree, it would be with Bellarmine's actual position (vs. the S&S distortion thereof).  But I would have to look at what Billuart actually said, because the citation by S&S sounds like it's talking about the internal sin of heresy (which deprives one of supernatural faith and charity) rather than with membership in the Church.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #201 on: January 24, 2023, 08:23:20 PM »
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  • If they agree, it would be with Bellarmine's actual position (vs. the S&S distortion thereof).  But I would have to look at what Billuart actually said, because the citation by S&S sounds like it's talking about the internal sin of heresy (which deprives one of supernatural faith and charity) rather than with membership in the Church.
    What is important, and obvious to all but the wilfully blind, is that we are dealing here with theological opinion.

    Anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty will appreciate that there is a very weighty body of theological opinion of celebrated theologians and jurists spanning many centuries that holds that an heretical pope is not truly such until his heresy is demonstrated to be formal and that even then he maintains his office until such time as the Church removes him from office in some fashion or other, and that he cannot be simply judged by the individual as being no longer pope. Not every theologian holds this view, obviously, there is perhaps no 'common opinion'. The Church has never settled this dispute.

    Do I then have the right to pontificate if the Church has not done so?

    For those who appreciate St Robert Bellarmine's opinions, recall some of his teachings:

    • "We cannot depose catholic bishops who have possessed their sees for so many centuries peacefully, unless they are legitimately judged and condemned; for in every controversy, the condition of the one possessing it is better..."
    • "...we are certain with an infallible certitude that these, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For this, neither faith, nor the character of order, nor even legitimate election is required, but only that they be held for such by the Church..."
    • "...Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people, and not that they depose them. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop's councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff..." Add to this the common sense of Cajetan: "... a heretical Pope is not deprived (of the Papacy) by divine or human law... Other bishops if they become heretics are not deprived ipso facto by divine or human law; therefore, neither is the Pope. The conclusion is obvious, because the Pope is not in a worse situation than other bishops..."

    "One cannot tolerate that a personal thesis be presented as confirmed and Church-defined dogmas in books, nor that the opposite thesis be accused of heresy. Thus the people of God is troubled, dissentions among theologians are created or augmented, and the bond of charity is broken." - Pope Benedict XIV, Sollicita n25


    As Fr Chazal says in Contra Cekadam: "The practical behaviour of Catholics does not depend in any way on an opinion. What you say as a private person is not a dogma... and before Vatican II no dogma on this intricate, controversial and until then academic question had ever been formulated. On the contrary, with the exception of the time of Gratian, the constant unanimity was that there is no unanimity on this question."

    Thus, Pere Jean (OFM Cap, Morgon) wrote in 2016: “It is understandable that some Traditional Catholics... be deeply troubled by the scandals of Pope Francis, who seems to have surpassed his predecessors'. The sedevacantist solution may appear to them as the simplest, most logical, and best. In fact, the fundamental problem remains the same since the '70s, and the prudent attitude of Abp Lefebvre, in considering the risk of excessive and rash judgement, with the attendant danger of schism, should not be abandoned.

    In 2001, the “Small Catechism on Sedevacantism” published by Le Sel de la Terre concluded: “This is a position that has not been proven at the speculative level, and it is imprudent to hold it at a practical level, an imprudence that can bear very serious consequences.” (No. 36, p. 117) This conclusion holds as much for pope Francis as for pope John-Paul II who had kissed the Quran.

    In this lies the whole drama of the sedevacantist movement. Individuals dogmatising an opinion, setting themselves up against their superiors (eg Sanborn against Lefebvre), dividing Tradition, isolating souls from the sacraments etc... and undoubtedly leading some souls down the path of schism, separating them forever from the Holy See.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #202 on: January 24, 2023, 08:28:09 PM »
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  • Q. Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate?

    A. There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable. Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church, ie, by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals - Rev S B Smith DD, Elements of Ecclesiasticla Law, Benzinger Bros, 1881, 3rd ed, p210

    Elements of ecclesiastical law : Smith, S. B. (Sebastian Bach), 1845-1895 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    Page 240 in this online edition


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #203 on: January 24, 2023, 10:36:31 PM »
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  • Q. Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate?

    A. There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable. Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church, ie, by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals - Rev S B Smith DD, Elements of Ecclesiasticla Law, Benzinger Bros, 1881, 3rd ed, p210

    Elements of ecclesiastical law : Smith, S. B. (Sebastian Bach), 1845-1895 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    Page 240 in this online edition

    Incorrect on two counts.  1) There are more than two opinions, and 2) St. Robert Bellarmine makes it clear that no declaration is required.  Nor does this explain what ipso jure means.  Which law?  Divine Law or Church law?  In addition, sedeprivationism distinguishes, that such a Pope is not deprived by the Divine Law itself of material possession of the Pontificate, but is deprive by Divine Law of being able to exercise the authority of the office (apart from the material aspects, such as making appointments).  So this citation is a hot mess.  St. Robert's citation of the Pope St. Celestine decree regarding Nestorius is fatal to this position and to that of Salza and Siscoe.

    At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.  This has nothing to do with the chief error of R&R to which many of you adhere pertinaciously.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #204 on: January 24, 2023, 10:42:05 PM »
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  • What is important, and obvious to all but the wilfully blind, is that we are dealing here with theological opinion.
    ...

    In this lies the whole drama of the sedevacantist movement. Individuals dogmatising an opinion, setting themselves up against their superiors (eg Sanborn against Lefebvre), dividing Tradition, isolating souls from the sacraments etc... and undoubtedly leading some souls down the path of schism, separating them forever from the Holy See.

    None of your long-winded post has anything to do with the passage of mine that you quoted.  Most of it is a distortion and taking stuff out of context and misapplying it.

    No, the problem isn't with sedevacantists.  It's with certain R&R Old Catholic heretics who promote the notion that the legitimate Papal authority can corrupt the Magisterium and the Public worship of the Church.  If you hold this, you too are a heretic, and part of the problem, not of the solution, despite your preferences for the smells and bells of the Tridentine Mass.

    PS, nor was +Lefebvre Father Sanborn's superior.  +Lefebvre had no jurisdiction or authority over anyone.

    What an idiot, accusing SVs of schism, when Canon Lawyers clearly state that it's not schismatic to refuse submission to a Pope based on well-founded doubts about his legitimacy.  You'll notice that the implied corollary is that it is schismatic to refuse submission WITHOUT doubts about the Pope's legitimacy ... as R&R does.  R&R is what's schismatic, and you have the temerity to accuse SVs of it.  Your assertion that SVs are separating themselves from the Holy See is begging the question, assuming that Bergoglio and his predecessors are the Holy See.  But you claim that it IS the Holy See and you separate yourselves from that See.  It's ludicrous that you claim to be united with the Holy See and in submission to it because you pay lip service ("yes, he's the pope") and put up a picture of Bergoglio in the vestibule.

    Really, both the stupidity and the bad will involved in this version of the R&R position are almost beyond belief.

    And +Lefebvre did not adhere to your errors, despite your assertions, and it's provable from his own words.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #205 on: January 24, 2023, 11:35:24 PM »
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  • Q. Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate?

    A. There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable. Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church, ie, by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals - Rev S B Smith DD, Elements of Ecclesiasticla Law, Benzinger Bros, 1881, 3rd ed, p210

    Elements of ecclesiastical law : Smith, S. B. (Sebastian Bach), 1845-1895 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    Page 240 in this online edition

    The thing is that these "popes" didn't fall into heresy.

    They were blatant, persistent, public heretics and therefore

    out of the Church before they were even elected.

    Can a non-Catholic become pope?

    It's the equivalent to using a potato chip at the consecration at Mass instead of unleavened bread - it’s invalid matter and no consecration takes place.

    A public heretic or apostate is not “valid matter”for any office in the Church as such a one is barred by divine law from the papacy.

    So no consecration could take place.

    There is no pope to judge.

    These theological arguments that go round and round are about judging and deposing a pope.  That's above our paygrade. 

    I can't depose them.  That's not my jurisdiction.  That's not for me to worry about.

    I just can't worship with them.


    The bottom line for me, and I don't try to bind other people's consciences or say they are going to hell if they don't agree

    but for me anyway

    it's just a matter of basic Catechism.

    It's against the First Commandment to pray in union with non-Catholics.

    I don't need a Church council to come to my town and declare the Imam down the street or the Protestant preacher a heretic even if they called themselves Catholic.  I have the ability to determine that much on my own.

    God gave me eyes and ears.

    If somebody dresses up as a priest or even as a pope and tells me that we worship the same god as Muslims (which VII states) then I know they aren't Catholic.  Catholics don't worship Allah.  I don't worship Allah.

    Even little ol' me knows that much.  ::)

    If even an angel dresses up as pope and preaches a false gospel, I'm commanded to treat them as an anathema.

    But these guys aren't even disguised as angels.

    They have made it very, very, clear they deny Christ, deny the need for His Sacrifice to go to Heaven, deny His bodily resurrection, they worship in mosques and ѕуηαgσgυєs and with pagans and write books saying that all religions lead to Heaven etc. etc. etc. 

    I posted photos earlier in this thread where they walk around blatantly showing themselves to not be Catholics.  Benedict wearing the Star of Remphan on his mitre, Paul VI wearing the Ephod, Benedict getting a witchdoctor blessing, Francis worshipping pajamamama.

    They have left the Barque.

    They are the leaders of the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr One World Religion.

    It's blatant and in your face.

    God allowed that so even the common man can see it with their own eyes.

    I can't pray with non-Catholics.

    That would be a sin against the First Commandment.


    How can I worship una cuм (in union with) these guys?

    How can I join my prayers to theirs?

    I don't share the same religion.

    I don't share the same gods.


    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #206 on: January 25, 2023, 06:39:14 AM »
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  • Is there an error there or is this quote being misinterpreted (as usual) by Salza and Siscoe?  This part (from Billuart) in the actual quotations marks seems to be a reference to the internal sin of heresy, where he's lost sanctifying grace and can still be head of the Church.  I'd like to see the actual full context of the quote.  Indeed, the head can still function after having lost the "influx of interior faith and charity", but that's not what we're talking about here, but rather loss of membership due to EXTERNAL (public manifest heresy), i.e. a physical severing of the head from the body.  If the head is severed from the body, it can certainly no longer govern / control the body.

    The part in quotes that begins with ""Billuart’s error consists in his failure..." are the words of Fr. Paul Kramer.  Sorry for the confusion.  None of the quotes I provided in that post are the words of Salza or Siscoe.  Fr. Paul Kramer is writing about the public sin of heresy.

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #207 on: January 25, 2023, 06:41:15 AM »
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  • Why should SS quote Billuart "in a futile attempt to refute Bellarmine," when they both agree on the subject?

    Either Fr. Kramer has not understood SS's position, or he has not understood Billuart's position, or he has not understood Bellarmine's position (or he has not understood any of their positions).

    But that Billuart and Bellarmine agree has already been shown in previous pages.

    All the quotes in that post are the words of Fr. Paul Kramer except the quote in quote surrounded by ' marks, which are Fr. Paul Kramer quoting someone else.

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #208 on: January 25, 2023, 06:44:42 AM »
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  • What is important, and obvious to all but the wilfully blind, is that we are dealing here with theological opinion.

    What we know for certain is that the public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates one from the Church.  

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #209 on: January 25, 2023, 06:49:33 AM »
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  • Q. Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate?

    A. There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable. Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church, ie, by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals - Rev S B Smith DD, Elements of Ecclesiasticla Law, Benzinger Bros, 1881, 3rd ed, p210

    Elements of ecclesiastical law : Smith, S. B. (Sebastian Bach), 1845-1895 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    Page 240 in this online edition

    You fail to make the distinction between the sin of heresy and the crime of heresy.  The public sin of heresy per se separates one from the Church.  The author of what you wrote did not have the luxury of Pope Pius XII's teaching in Mystici Corporis:

    “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23) [Emphases mine]