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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59495 times)

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #170 on: January 23, 2023, 09:27:51 PM »
And I'm going to keep writing it until some of you wake up to the fact that you've completely (and pertinaciously) embraced a heretical ecclesiology.

This is not rocket science.  Our Lord promised the assistance of the Holy Spirit to the See of Peter, an assistance which prevents it from corrupting faith or morals.

You have two choices to avoid heresy, 1) claim that faith and morals haven't been corrupted (that V2 was misinterpreted by Modernists and the NOM is not essentially bad but has been abused) or 2) assert that legitimate Papal authority exercised freely did not produce V2 and the NOM.

Within #2, you have various choices, from sedevacantism, sedeprivationism, sedeimpoundism, Siri thesis, blackmailed pope, drugged pope, pope replaced by a double, etc.

This Chair of Peter cannot fail, and to say otherwise is heretical.  Period.  End of Story.  Address it with #1 or with #2 (and any permutation of #2), but you can't simply run off and pertinaciously embrace some repackaged form of Old Catholicism / Eastern Orthodoxy / Protestantism.

You have the temerity to refer to this Basic Foundation of Catholicism as "delusion".  Unbelievable.
This chair of Peter cannot fail, what does it mean? It's not rocket science:

"'I have prayed for thee that thy faith not fail; and when you have converted, strengthen your brethren' (Luke 22:31). From this text, St Bernard in letter 90 to Pope Innocent deduced that the Roman Pontiff teaching ex cathedra cannot err; and before him the same was said by Pope Lucius I in letter I to the Bishops of Spain and France, by Pope Felix I in a letter to Benignus, Pope Mark in a letter to Athanasius, Leo I in sermon 3..., Leo IX in a letter to Peter Patriarch of Antioch, Agatho in a letter to the Emperor Constantine IV which was read at the Sixth Council (act 4 and again act 8) and approved by the whole Council, Pope Paschal II at the Roman Council..., Innocent III in the chapter Majores on Baptism and its effect... Therefore, if the Roman Pontiff cannot err when he is teaching ex cathedra, certainly his judgement must be followed... For we read Acts ch 15 that the Council said: 'It has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us'; such also now is the Pontiff's teaching ex cathedra, whom we showed is always directed by the Holy Ghost so that he cannot err." - St Robert Bellarmine, On the Word of God, Lib 3, Cap 5

"But since, in this very age in which the salutary efficacy of the Apostolic office is most of all required, not a few are found who take away from its authority, We judge it altogether necessary to assert solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God found worthy to join with the supreme pastoral office. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, for the glory of God Our Saviour, the exaltation of the Catholic Religion, and the salvation of Christian people, the Sacred Council approving, We teach and define that it is a divinely-revealed dogma: that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex Cathedra, that is, when in discharge of the office of Pastor and Teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the Universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed for defining doctrine regarding faith or morals: and that therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church. But if anyone - God forbid - whould presume to contradict this our definition; let him be anathema." - Pastor Aeternus

"It should not be said that the Pontiff is infallible simply because of the authority of the Papacy but rather inasmuch as he is certainly and undoubtedly subject to the direction of the divine assistance. By the authority of the Papacy the Pontiff is always the supreme judge in matters of faith and morals, and the father and teacher of all Christians. But the divine assistance promised to him, by which he cannot err, he only enjoys as such when he really and actually exercises his duty as supreme judge and universal teacher of the Church in disputes about the Faith. Thus, the sentence 'The Roman Pontiff is infallible' should not be treated as false, since Christ promised infallibility to the person of Peter and his successors, but it is incomplete, since the Pope is only infallible when, by a solemn judgement, he defines a matter of faith and morals for the Church universal" - Bishop Vincent Gasser, Official Relatio on Infallibility of Vatican I






Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #171 on: January 24, 2023, 04:02:39 AM »
“…and the Church must deprive him…”

You ‘accidentally’ forgot to include that part.

I only excluded that part because it’s unnecessary to understand the first part, that he “falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church”.  AFTER it is recognized that he has fallen from his office, it must be declared by the Church that it has deprived *the former pope* of all that he once possessed so that a new pope can be elected. I don’t understand why you don’t follow this concept.


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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #172 on: January 24, 2023, 04:17:44 AM »
BILLUART (+1757):

"The more common opinion holds that Christ, by a particular providence, for the common good and the tranquility of the Church, continues to give jurisdiction to an even manifestly heretical pontiff until such time as he should be declared a manifest heretic by the Church" - De Fide, Diss V, A III No 3 Obj 2



Saint Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church, disagrees:


“A Pope who is a manifest heretic automatically ceases to be a Pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.”


Assuming Billuart’s quote is accurate, which one do you prefer to follow?



Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #173 on: January 24, 2023, 04:22:44 AM »
This chair of Peter cannot fail, what does it mean? It's not rocket science:

"'I have prayed for thee that thy faith not fail; and when you have converted, strengthen your brethren' (Luke 22:31). From this text, St Bernard in letter 90 to Pope Innocent deduced that the Roman Pontiff teaching ex cathedra cannot err; and before him the same was said by Pope Lucius I in letter I to the Bishops of Spain and France, by Pope Felix I in a letter to Benignus, Pope Mark in a letter to Athanasius, Leo I in sermon 3..., Leo IX in a letter to Peter Patriarch of Antioch, Agatho in a letter to the Emperor Constantine IV which was read at the Sixth Council (act 4 and again act 8) and approved by the whole Council, Pope Paschal II at the Roman Council..., Innocent III in the chapter Majores on Baptism and its effect... Therefore, if the Roman Pontiff cannot err when he is teaching ex cathedra, certainly his judgement must be followed... For we read Acts ch 15 that the Council said: 'It has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us'; such also now is the Pontiff's teaching ex cathedra, whom we showed is always directed by the Holy Ghost so that he cannot err." - St Robert Bellarmine, On the Word of God, Lib 3, Cap 5

"But since, in this very age in which the salutary efficacy of the Apostolic office is most of all required, not a few are found who take away from its authority, We judge it altogether necessary to assert solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God found worthy to join with the supreme pastoral office. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, for the glory of God Our Saviour, the exaltation of the Catholic Religion, and the salvation of Christian people, the Sacred Council approving, We teach and define that it is a divinely-revealed dogma: that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex Cathedra, that is, when in discharge of the office of Pastor and Teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the Universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed for defining doctrine regarding faith or morals: and that therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church. But if anyone - God forbid - whould presume to contradict this our definition; let him be anathema." - Pastor Aeternus

"It should not be said that the Pontiff is infallible simply because of the authority of the Papacy but rather inasmuch as he is certainly and undoubtedly subject to the direction of the divine assistance. By the authority of the Papacy the Pontiff is always the supreme judge in matters of faith and morals, and the father and teacher of all Christians. But the divine assistance promised to him, by which he cannot err, he only enjoys as such when he really and actually exercises his duty as supreme judge and universal teacher of the Church in disputes about the Faith. Thus, the sentence 'The Roman Pontiff is infallible' should not be treated as false, since Christ promised infallibility to the person of Peter and his successors, but it is incomplete, since the Pope is only infallible when, by a solemn judgement, he defines a matter of faith and morals for the Church universal" - Bishop Vincent Gasser, Official Relatio on Infallibility of Vatican I

Using your line of reasoning, every time there is an interregnum, the chair of Peter fails.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #174 on: January 24, 2023, 04:28:16 AM »
So you’re conceding Paul IV - cuм ex is irrelevant?

As I’ve expressed above, the arguments compliment and support one another.