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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 59620 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #155 on: January 23, 2023, 03:01:39 PM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on January 23, 2023, 02:47:53 PM
Of
Neither the Church, nor its indefectibility, is an end unto itself, but serves a purpose. What is that purpose? It was most succinctly and ably expressed in something I've quote before, Vatican I's Draft Dogmatic Constitution on the Church:


There it is, in that "so that" highlighted in red above: the purpose for the Church and its indefectibility.

Now, either indefectibility doesn't mean what Ladislaus thinks it means - if so, it has betrayed its purpose and no longer has any meaning for its existence - and is actually what Stubborn says it is, the core teachings of Scripture and Tradition which are indeed free from error and conduct men to salvation, or, if it means what you think it means, it has obviously served its purpose and God is no longer working through a visible hierarchy, a "governing body" easily identified by men and a lamp guiding them through the darkness. As Cardinal Manning said, there would come an "hour" when the gates of hell would prevail, and that God would so " permit it for a time stands in the book of prophecy."

Take your pick between those two viable alternatives. Your view is in fact delusional, and does not hold up to reality.

Of course, there is a third alternative, not held by the overwhelming majority of those on this forum, and by most who would be identified as "Trads": there is nothing in V2 or the Novus Ordo, in themselves, which, if adhered to and followed, would deprive a Catholic of salvation.

But that view would be similar to Stubborn's in the sense of holding that the most solemn expressions of the Magisterium - in ecuмenical councils, in its form of worship - are not capable of error or poisonous to salvific health. Of course, it would differ in that Stubborn would disagree that V2 or the Novus Ordo are expressions of the solemn or infallible Magisterium.
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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #156 on: January 23, 2023, 06:04:03 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 23, 2023, 02:11:55 PM
Dear Suarez, Lagrange, Billuart (and Avrille)-

Ladislaus says you're wrong, so please consult him and get back to us.


:jester::facepalm::laugh2::laugh1::confused:

Especially after Vatican I, I prefer to learn from:

Saint Alphonsus, Saint Robert Bellarmine, Saint Francis de Sales, Saint Antoninus, Pope Paul IV, Pope Innocent III, Coronata, Vermeersch, Regatillo, Wernz-Vidal among many others. 

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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #157 on: January 23, 2023, 07:00:14 PM »
Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on January 23, 2023, 06:04:03 PM
Especially after Vatican I, I prefer to learn from:

Pope Paul IV

"The sedevacantists base their position on the apostolic constitution cuм ex Apostolatus of Pope Paul IV (1555-1559). But some good studies have shown that this constitution lost its legal force (even sedevacantist priests recognize it: “We cannot use the bull of Paul IV to prove that the Holy See is currently vacant, but only to prove the possibility that it can happen…” (Fr. F. Ricossa, Solalitium 36, May-June 1994, p. 57-58, note 1). That which remains valid in this constitution is its dogmatic aspect. And, consequently, it cannot be made to say more than the theological argument already examined.

Yet the Code in the Gasparri edition refers in a note to the cuм ex apostolatus constitution.
[Editor:  The “Gasparri edition” refers to a special edition of Canon Law compiled and annotated with footnotes by the Italian cardinal, Pietro Gasparri.  In those notes to the 1917 Code, he provides many links to the sources of that very code.]

Counter-Argument 1:  These notes of the code in the Gasparri edition mention the sources of the Code. But this does not mean that all of its sources are still in force!

Counter-Argument 2:  The 1917 Code says in Canon 6 (5°) that the punishments that are not mentioned in the code are abrogated. Now, the cuм ex apostolatus constitution was a penal law, because it inflicted the revocation of an ecclesiastical office, and the punishments that it prescribed were not picked up again in the code.

Counter-Argument 3:  There is more: even before the new Code, St. Pius X had already abrogated Paul IV’s constitution by his consitition Vacante sede apostolica of December 25, 1904 (§ 29), which declares null any censure able to remove the active or passive voice from the cardinals of the conclave. And Canon 160 of the Code declares that the election of the pope is regulated only by this constitution of St. Pius X.

Counter-Argument 4:  The constitution of Pius XII of December 8, 1945, Vacantis Apostolicæ Sedis, which replaced that of St. Pius X, takes the same position on this subject: “No cardinal may be excluded in any way from the active and passive election of the sovereign pontiff, under no pretext nor for cause of excommunication, suspension, interdiction or other ecclesiastical impediment. We lift the effect of these censures for this type of election only, keeping them in force for everything else” (n. 34)."

https://dominicansavrille.us/little-catechism-on-sedevacantism-part-i/


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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #158 on: January 23, 2023, 07:14:55 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 23, 2023, 07:00:14 PM
"The sedevacantists base their position on the apostolic constitution cuм ex Apostolatus of Pope Paul IV (1555-1559). But some good studies have shown that this constitution lost its legal force (even sedevacantist priests recognize it: “We cannot use the bull of Paul IV to prove that the Holy See is currently vacant, but only to prove the possibility that it can happen…” (Fr. F. Ricossa, Solalitium 36, May-June 1994, p. 57-58, note 1). That which remains valid in this constitution is its dogmatic aspect. And, consequently, it cannot be made to say more than the theological argument already examined.

Yet the Code in the Gasparri edition refers in a note to the cuм ex apostolatus constitution.
[Editor:  The “Gasparri edition” refers to a special edition of Canon Law compiled and annotated with footnotes by the Italian cardinal, Pietro Gasparri.  In those notes to the 1917 Code, he provides many links to the sources of that very code.]

Counter-Argument 1:  These notes of the code in the Gasparri edition mention the sources of the Code. But this does not mean that all of its sources are still in force!

Counter-Argument 2:  The 1917 Code says in Canon 6 (5°) that the punishments that are not mentioned in the code are abrogated. Now, the cuм ex apostolatus constitution was a penal law, because it inflicted the revocation of an ecclesiastical office, and the punishments that it prescribed were not picked up again in the code.

Counter-Argument 3:  There is more: even before the new Code, St. Pius X had already abrogated Paul IV’s constitution by his consitition Vacante sede apostolica of December 25, 1904 (§ 29), which declares null any censure able to remove the active or passive voice from the cardinals of the conclave. And Canon 160 of the Code declares that the election of the pope is regulated only by this constitution of St. Pius X.

Counter-Argument 4:  The constitution of Pius XII of December 8, 1945, Vacantis Apostolicæ Sedis, which replaced that of St. Pius X, takes the same position on this subject: “No cardinal may be excluded in any way from the active and passive election of the sovereign pontiff, under no pretext nor for cause of excommunication, suspension, interdiction or other ecclesiastical impediment. We lift the effect of these censures for this type of election only, keeping them in force for everything else” (n. 34)."

https://dominicansavrille.us/little-catechism-on-sedevacantism-part-i/


Sean why did you ignore……… Saint Alphonsus, Saint Robert Bellarmine, Saint Francis de Sales, Saint Antoninus, Pope Innocent III, Coronata, Vermeersch, Regatillo, Wernz-Vidal?

For the record I don’t base my position on cuм ex Apostolatus although I do find it supportive.
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #159 on: January 23, 2023, 07:22:16 PM »
Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on January 23, 2023, 07:14:55 PM

Sean why did you ignore……… Saint Alphonsus, Saint Robert Bellarmine, Saint Francis de Sales, Saint Antoninus, Pope Innocent III, Coronata, Vermeersch, Regatillo, Wernz-Vidal?

For the record I don’t base my position on cuм ex Apostolatus although I do find it supportive.

So you concede cuм ex does not apply?
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