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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 41677 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2023, 01:32:34 PM »
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  • What do you think "manifest" means?
    Evident

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #16 on: January 09, 2023, 01:39:07 PM »
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  • Evident

    You would be wrong.

    "A pope who merely seems to have lost the Faith, or who has made statements that are erroneous or even heretical, yet who has not openly left the Church or been publicly warned, does not constitute a manifest heretic.  And since no such warnings have been given to any of the post-Vatican II popes, either before or after their election, none of them qualify as a manifest heretic."
    https://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2013-0315-siscoe-sedevacantism.htm

    "Suarez: “in no case, even that of heresy, is the Pontiff deprived of his dignity and of his power immediately by God himself, before the judgment and sentence of men. This is the common opinion today”. (ibid.)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #17 on: January 09, 2023, 02:06:36 PM »
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  • The term "public manifest formal heretic" means one who makes evident to a large number of people that his heresy is pertinacious.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #18 on: January 09, 2023, 02:08:26 PM »
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  • You would be wrong.

    "A pope who merely seems to have lost the Faith, or who has made statements that are erroneous or even heretical, yet who has not openly left the Church or been publicly warned, does not constitute a manifest heretic.  And since no such warnings have been given to any of the post-Vatican II popes, either before or after their election, none of them qualify as a manifest heretic."
    https://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2013-0315-siscoe-sedevacantism.htm

    "Suarez: “in no case, even that of heresy, is the Pontiff deprived of his dignity and of his power immediately by God himself, before the judgment and sentence of men. This is the common opinion today”. (ibid.)

    No warnings are needed for a "public manifest formal heretic" as defined above.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #19 on: January 09, 2023, 02:18:14 PM »
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  • No warnings are needed for a "public manifest formal heretic" as defined above.

    "...because for a limited time only, Glamour Shots by Deb are 75% off."


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #20 on: January 09, 2023, 02:30:32 PM »
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  • One who makes evident to a large number of people that his heresy is pertinacious separates himself from the Church by the very fact of that heresy because heresy per se (i.e., in itself) does the separating.  This is a teaching of the Church.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #21 on: January 09, 2023, 02:38:19 PM »
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  • One who makes evident to a large number of people that his heresy is pertinacious separates himself from the Church by the very fact of that heresy because heresy per se (i.e., in itself) does the separating.  This is a teaching of the Church.

    As much as I appreciate self-serving definitions, I think I'll stick with Suarez and "the common opinion."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #22 on: January 09, 2023, 02:38:27 PM »
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  • I'll move this to a different thread later.  Matthew requested that this debate not happen here.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #23 on: January 09, 2023, 03:27:13 PM »
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  • As much as I appreciate self-serving definitions, I think I'll stick with Suarez and "the common opinion."

    “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23)

    Public heretics (and a fortiori, apostatesare not members of the Church.  They are not members because they separate themselves from the unity of Catholic faith and from the external profession of the faith.  Obviously, therefore, they lack one of the three factors-baptism, profession of the same faith, union with the hierarchy-pointed out by Pius XII as requisite for membership in the Church (see above, p. 238).  The same pontiff has explicitly pointed out that, unlike other sins, heresy, schism, and apostasy, automatically sever a man from the Church. ‘For not every sin, however grave and enormous it be, is such as to sever a man automatically from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy‘ (MCC 30, italics ours).”
    (Monsignor G. Van Noort, S.T.D., Dogmatic Theology, Volume II, Christ’s Church, 153)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #24 on: January 09, 2023, 03:42:55 PM »
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  • “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, 23)

    Public heretics (and a fortiori, apostates) are not members of the Church.  They are not members because they separate themselves from the unity of Catholic faith and from the external profession of the faith.  Obviously, therefore, they lack one of the three factors-baptism, profession of the same faith, union with the hierarchy-pointed out by Pius XII as requisite for membership in the Church (see above, p. 238).  The same pontiff has explicitly pointed out that, unlike other sins, heresy, schism, and apostasy, automatically sever a man from the Church. ‘For not every sin, however grave and enormous it be, is such as to sever a man automatically from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy‘ (MCC 30, italics ours).”
    (Monsignor G. Van Noort, S.T.D., Dogmatic Theology, Volume II, Christ’s Church, 153)


    Blah, blah.  You don't understand the meaning of the terms you use.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #25 on: January 10, 2023, 08:09:20 AM »
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  • My definition of public manifest formal heretic (i.e., one who makes evident to a large number of people that his heresy is pertinacious) fits well within Canon 1325 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

    "A heretic is one who, after having been baptized, and still claiming to be a Christian, denies or doubts pertinaciously a truth that must be believed by Divine and Catholic Faith."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #26 on: January 10, 2023, 08:34:34 AM »
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  • My definition of public manifest formal heretic (i.e., one who makes evident to a large number of people that his heresy is pertinacious) fits well within Canon 1325 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

    "A heretic is one who, after having been baptized, and still claiming to be a Christian, denies or doubts pertinaciously a truth that must be believed by Divine and Catholic Faith."

    Sorry, but no:

    A formal heretic is a DECLARED heretic (and hence the provisions of Can. 2264 making their juridical acts licit and valid in the absence of said declaration).

    It seems you are intent upon imposing colloquial 😢 nag upon canonical and theological terms, to arrive at false conclusions.

    For example, you think manifest means “evident,” but do not allow for pertinacity which must first be established.

    You think formal or public simply means saying something heretical in front of lots of people, instead of establishing pertinacity, in order for something to be manifest, which in turn results in a declaration, all of which must transpire for a heresy to be formal.

    You are not competent to discuss this subject matter.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #27 on: January 10, 2023, 09:16:52 AM »
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  • Here's a pertinent explanation: https://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2013-0315-siscoe-sedevacantism.htm



    Public Heretic
    Some theologians have held that if a pope became a manifest heretic he would automatically lose his office, thereby rendering the Chair of Peter vacant.  The great Doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine, was of this opinion.  He wrote:
    Bellarmine: “[T]the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church”. (13)
    The question we must consider is what constitutes manifest heresy in the external or public forum?  According to the late Canon Gregory Hesse, who held a Ph.D. in canon law and Thomistic theology, a formal heretic in the external forum is a declared heretic. He explained that a heretic can be declared in one of two ways: either he is declared a heretic by the proper authorities, or he declares himself a heretic.  But how would a person declare themself to be a formal heretic?
    Since formal heresy requires pertinacity, in order for a statement that is materially false to be considered formally heretical in the external forum, pertinacity would also have to be manifest.  Without a formal declaration by the Church, and short of the man in question leaving the Church, or publicly admitting that he rejects a defined dogma, pertinacity would have to be demonstrated another way.  The other way, according to St. Robert Bellarmine, would be for the man to remain manifestly obstinate after two warnings.  Only then would pertinacity be demonstrated in the external form, thereby rendering him a manifest heretic.
    Bellarmine: “The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate – which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence”. (14)
    So according to St. Bellarmine, who bases his opinion on St. Paul, a heretic is considered to be manifestly obstinate after receiving two warnings.  But who would be responsible for warning the Pope?  The eminent eighteenth-century Italian theologian, Father Pietro Ballerini, discusses this very point.
    Fr. Ballerini: “The Cardinals, who are his counselors, can do this; or the Roman Clergy, or the Roman Synod, if, being met, they judge this opportune. For any person, even a private person, the words of Saint Paul to Titus hold: ‘Avoid the heretic, after a first and second correction, knowing that such a man is perverted and sins, since he is condemned by his own judgment’ (Tit. 3, 10-11). For the person, who admonished once or twice, does not repent, but continues pertinacious in an opinion contrary to a manifest or public dogma - not being able, on account of this public pertinacity to be excused, by any means, of heresy properly so called, which requires pertinacity - this person declares himself openly a heretic. He reveals that by his own will he has turned away from the Catholic Faith and the Church, in such form that now no declaration or sentence of any one whatsoever is necessary to cut him from the body of the Church. (…) Therefore the Pontiff who after such a solemn and public warning by the Cardinals, by the Roman Clergy or even by the Synod, maintained himself hardened in heresy and openly turned himself away from the Church, would have to be avoided, according to the precept of Saint Paul. So that he might not cause damage to the rest, he would have to have his heresy and contumacy publicly proclaimed, so that all might be able to be equally on guard in relation to him. Thus, the sentence which he had pronounced against himself would be made known to all the Church, making clear that by his own will be had turned away and separated himself from the body of the Church, and that in a certain way he had abdicated the Pontificate, which no one holds or can hold if he does not belong to the Church”. (15)
    In the next quote, the great Jesuit Suarez comments on this same point:   
    Suarez: “I affirm: if he were a heretic and incorrigible, the Pope would cease to be Pope just when a sentence was passed against him for his crime, by the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church. This is the common opinion among the doctors, and it is gathered from the first epistle of Saint Clement I, in which one reads that Saint Peter taught that a Pope heretic must be deposed.  (…) In the first place, who ought to pronounce such a sentence? Some say that it would be the Cardinals; and the Church would be able undoubtedly to attribute to them this faculty, above all if it were thus established by the consent or determination of the Supreme Pontiffs, as was done in regard to the election. But up to today we do not read in any place that such a judgment has been confided to them. For this reason, one must affirm that, as such, it pertains to all the Bishops of the Church, for, being the ordinary pastors and the pillars of the Church, one must consider that such a case concerns them. And since by divine law there is no greater reason to affirm that the matter is of more interest to these bishops than to those, and since by human law nothing has been established in the matter, one must necessarily sustain that the case refers to all, and even to the general council. That is the common opinion among the doctors”. (16)
    A pope who merely seems to have lost the Faith, or who has made statements that are erroneous or even heretical, yet who has not openly left the Church or been publicly warned, does not constitute a manifest heretic.  And since no such warnings have been given to any of the post-Vatican II popes, either before or after their election, none of them qualify as a manifest heretic.
    And it should also be noted that many theologians have held that a manifestly heretical pope does not automatically lose his office.  According to Suarez, this was the common opinion in his day.
    Suarez: “in no case, even that of heresy, is the Pontiff deprived of his dignity and of his power immediately by God himself, before the judgment and sentence of men. This is the common opinion today”. (ibid.)
    If one reads sedevacantist materials (which are usually the same quotations transferred from one website to another), they are left with the impression that virtually all agree that a Pope who becomes a manifest heretic automatically loses his office.  Yet as we just saw, it was the common opinion in Suarez’ day that a heretical pope could only be deprived of his office by the judgment and sentence of men.
    Below, Suarez explains why a Pope would not lose his office without a judgment and declaration of men, and then list the effects that would result if a declaration was not necessary – “effects” that sound like prophecies today.
    Suarez: “f the external but occult heretic (17) can still remain the true Pope, with equal right he can continue to be so in the event that the offense became known, as long as sentence were not passed on him.  And this for two reasons: because no one suffers a penalty if it is not “ipso facto” or by sentence, and because in this way would arise even greater evils. In effect, there would arise doubt about the degree of infamy necessary for him to lose his charge; there would rise schisms because of this, and everything would become uncertain, above all if, after being known as a heretic, the Pope should have maintained himself in possession of his charge by force or by other”. (ibid.)
    Do these prophetic words not reflect the situation today for those who reject what was, according to Suarez, the common opinion of his day?  How many “popes” have been elected by the sedevacantists to date?  Well over a dozen.  And how many more schisms are there between the various sedevacantist groups who have not gone so far as to elect their own pope?
    And it should be noted that others have argued that a Pope could not be deprived of his office, even due to public heresy, because of the harm it would do to the Church.  While this is only a minority opinion, the following teaching of the French canonist Bouix is worth citing.
    D. Bouix: “There is not sufficient reason to think that Christ had determined that an heretical Pope could be deposed. … We deny absolutely, however, that Christ could have established as a remedy the deposition of the Pope.  For … such a remedy would be worse than the evil itself. Indeed, one either supposes that this deposition would be carried out by Christ himself, as soon as the Pope were declared a heretic by a general council according to the doctrine of Suarez, or one supposes that it would be realized by virtue of the authority of the general council itself. Now, in both cases the evil would be aggravated, and not remedied. For the doctrine according to which Christ himself would depose the Pope heretic, as soon as the General council declared him a heretic, is no more than an opinion, rejected by any, and with which it is licit, for anyone whatsoever, to disagree. … Such being the case, even after it were declared by a General Council that a certain Pope were a heretic, it would absolutely not become certain that that Pope would be deposed; and in such a doubt one must rather continue to respect his authority. If another Pope were elected not only would he be of uncertain legitimacy, but he would even have to be branded as an intruder. Therefore, the remedy of a deposition made by Christ in the moment of a conciliar declaration, not only would not remedy the evil, but would create an evil much more grave, that is, a most intricate schism. Consequently, by no means should one think that Christ established such a remedy. But neither should one think that He established as a remedy deposition by the authority of the council itself. For, the deposition of a Pope by a council, besides being impossible, as will be said further on, would be followed by a worse evil if it were possible”. (18)
    Although the above citation represents a minority opinion, it shows that whether or not a pope would automatically lose his office through manifest heresy is an open question.
    Footnotes
    7) Essay on Heresy, by Arnaldo Vidigal Xavier da Silveira
    8) ibid.
    9) Heresy in History
    10) “The very commission of any act which signifies heresy, e.g., the statement of some doctrine contrary or contradictory to a revealed and defined dogma, gives sufficient ground for juridical presumption of heretical depravity” McKenzie, The Delict of Heresy, CU Canon Law Studies 77
    11) ibid.
    12) Heresy in History
    13) De Romano Pontifice, Bk. 2
    14) ibid.
    15) De Potestate Ecclesiastica, pgs.104-105
    16) De Fide, disp. X, sect. VI, nn. 3-10, pg. 316-317
    17) An external but occult heretic is one who has manifested his heresy to a small group, but not to the general public
    18) Tract. de Papa, tom. II, pgs. 670-671

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #28 on: January 10, 2023, 12:00:34 PM »
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  • Sorry, but no:

    A formal heretic is a DECLARED heretic (and hence the provisions of Can. 2264 making their juridical acts licit and valid in the absence of said declaration).

    It seems you are intent upon imposing colloquial 😢 nag upon canonical and theological terms, to arrive at false conclusions.

    For example, you think manifest means “evident,” but do not allow for pertinacity which must first be established.

    You think formal or public simply means saying something heretical in front of lots of people, instead of establishing pertinacity, in order for something to be manifest, which in turn results in a declaration, all of which must transpire for a heresy to be formal.

    You are not competent to discuss this subject matter.

    Formal heretic does not mean he has to be "declared" as such.  Read the definition in Canon 1325.  Nowhere in that definition does it state that there needs to be a declaration before the quality "formal" can be applied.  The "formal" part is contained in the term "pertinacity", which means that the person knows that the proposition he holds is against the Catholic Faith and still holds to it.  If the "formal heretic" has to be declared as such before the quality "formal" can be applied, then there would not be Canon 188 that speaks about loss of office without a declaration due to heresy or the Canon that deals with automatic excommunication for heresy.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
    « Reply #29 on: January 10, 2023, 12:18:08 PM »
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  • Formal heretic does not mean he has to be "declared" as such.  Read the definition in Canon 1325.  Nowhere in that definition does it state that there needs to be a declaration before the quality "formal" can be applied.  The "formal" part is contained in the term "pertinacity", which means that the person knows that the proposition he holds is against the Catholic Faith and still holds to it.  If the "formal heretic" has to be declared as such before the quality "formal" can be applied, then there would not be Canon 188 that speaks about loss of office without a declaration due to heresy or the Canon that deals with automatic excommunication for heresy.

    You are outmaneuvering yourself.

    Let me repeat: 

    "According to the late Canon Gregory Hesse, who held a Ph.D. in canon law and Thomistic theology, a formal heretic in the external forum is a declared heretic." 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."