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Author Topic: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter  (Read 58246 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2023, 08:41:59 AM »
 What is lacking in this thread is discussion of what "public, manifest" heresy is. 



Quote
Dogmatic Theology
volume II
Christ’s Church
Msgr. G. Van Noort

Chapter II
The Members of the Church
Scholion 1. Who are not members of the Church?

“The following classes of men are definitely not members of the Church:
The non baptized;  (b) public heretics;*  (c) public schismatics; total excommunicates.

A heretic is one who denies a truth of divine and Catholic faith: i.e.k, a truth which has been revealed by God and proposed by the Church for our belief.  Heretics are classified as “public” or “occult,” “formal” or “material”.  A public (notorious) heretic is one whose heresy is known to a large number of people, even if he has not formally joined the ranks of a heretical church; an occult heretic is one whose errors in faith are either totally unknown, or known only to a few.  A formal heretic is one who stubbornly and guiltily adheres to heresy; a material heretic is one who innocently and in good faith subscribes to some heretical doctrine. [ 152 pg. 239]



The Church of Christ
An Apologetic and Dogmatic Treatise
E. Sylvester Berry, STD

Chapter VI
Members of the Church

Article III.  Persons Excluded From Membership

Manifest Heretics and Schismatics [pg. 128]
A heretic is usually defined as a Christian, i.e. a baptized person, who holds a doctrine contrary to revealed truth; but this definition is inaccurate, since it would make heretics of the large portion of the faithful…A person who submits to the authority of the Church and wishes to accept all her teachings, is not a heretic, even if he professes heretical doctrines through ignorance of what the Church really teaches; he implicitly accepts the true doctrine in his general intention to accept all that the Church teaches…

Excluded from Membership.  Manifest heretics…are excluded from membership in the Church….So far as exclusion from the Church is concerned, it matters not whether the heresy or schism is formal or material.


Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
Dr. Ludwig Ott

Chapter 5
The Necessity of the Church

[Section 19] Membership of the Church

3. Inference
b) Open apostates and heretics.  Public heretics, even those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body of the Church, that is to the legal commonwealth of the Church….[pg. 311]


The American Ecclesiastical Review
Vol. CXII. No. 4            April, 1945

Theological Evaluation of the Congar-White Theory

Despite the manifest learning and ability of some of the writers who teach that material heretics are members of the Church, the consensus of Scholastic theology is definitely opposed to this position….the great theologian, Emil Dorsch, writes that “you can take it as certain that these manifest material heretics do not belong to the Catholic Church…the famous Fr. Van Noort holds that public heretics, whether in good faith or in bad faith, are not members of the Church.  The Jesuit, Jean Vincent Bainvel, teaches that manifest heretics and schismatics, even those who are only materially such, are outside the true Church…The same teaching is found in the manuals of Brunsman-Preuss and Cardinal Louis Billot.  The distinguished American theologian, Dr. E. Sylvester Berry, states explicitly that manifest heretics are not members of the Church.  This holds true whether their heresy is formal or only material. [pg. 300: Msgr. Fenton cites the manuals and page numbers from which each theologian is quoted.]




"But They are Material Heretics!" Theological Stun Gun: Are Material Heretics IN the Catholic Church Anyways? No, They Are Not. Lest the Church become one of heretics and not of believers! Read the Theological Proof Here. (chojnowski.me)


Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2023, 08:49:35 AM »
What is lacking in this thread is discussion of what "public, manifest" heresy is.

You’ll find it addressed several times in my previous posts


Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2023, 09:02:31 AM »
Au contraire:

I most certainly am aware of the distinction, but it cannot save Fr. Kramer’s position, for the reasons which follow:



PART II: FORMAL REPLY TO FR. FRAMER.


Part II
Exposing the Errors of Fr. Paul Kramer
on Mystici Corporis Christi

What precisely are you disputing about what I wrote by you posting the above article?

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2023, 09:23:03 AM »
What precisely are you disputing about what I wrote by you posting the above article?

You had pretended that I was missing the distinction between the sin of heresy and the crime of heresy.  The article discusses it.

Re: Miles Christi volume 24 discussion - Fr Chazal's newsletter
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2023, 09:25:38 AM »
You had pretended that I was missing the distinction between the sin of heresy and the crime of heresy.  The article discusses it.

Please point out that distinction yourself.