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Author Topic: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse  (Read 34772 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
« Reply #195 on: April 26, 2020, 09:51:40 AM »
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  • Agreed.  These are serious questions that DO need to be addressed.  But the legitimate points are actually buried.  That's why I say Voris did a great disservice by burying it in nonsense.  +Williamson's response has been that, in the heat of the sedevacanist vs. R&R battle that was raging at the time, he was persuaded by Urrutigoity that it had been a politically-motivated accusation.

    +Lefebvre told Fr. Williamson that Urrutigoity needed to be watched "like a hawk".  But when I was there with him, there was no such watching going on.  Fr. Urrutigoity was a veritable cult leader with a group of 7-8 seminarians with whom he formed a tightly-knit circle.  Both my brother Steve (the one on the cancer prayer thread) and I spoke about how we couldn't figure out what the fascination was with that guy.  Well, now we know.  Both Steve and I could go on for a long time.  Steve's run-in with then-Fr. Urrutigoity was the reason he was let go from the seminary.

    There's no doubt that the SSPX BADLY MISHANDLED this case.  None whatsoever.  Now, this was before the whole pederasty scandal blew up years later, and perhaps there was some naivete involved.  We may never know.

    Really, the best thing that the SSPX could do as a defense is to acknowledge and ask forgiveness for the incidents that they mishandled.  "In the case of
    • , we acknowledge that the situation was badly mishandled, and we ask forgiveness from God for it."  So admit the wrongdoing in some of those cases, and that will make your defense of the false allegations to be more credible.

    TIA recently examined the SSPX’s  Urrutigoity case and found systematic mismanagement.


    But, when you put Urrutigoity’s clerical career into historical perspective with the struggle of Catholic tradition, he appears to have been an agent, possibly programmed (MKUltra style) to infiltrate and explode, according to plan.


    His latter assignment to Paraguay by B16 and the simultaneous defrocking of their Trad Bishop there by Francis (using the excuse that Urrutigoity was a queer) was too coincidental.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline BeatusRusticus

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #196 on: April 26, 2020, 09:54:06 AM »
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  • You would think, with the doctrinal strictness of Catholicism, and today, the Traditional kind, there wouldn’t be a lot of attraction for homos. And maybe in 2020 many would rather just start wearing gαy attire and hanging out in their preferred nightlife venues. But historically that has not been the case. 

    Even in the 19th century, the Anglicans noticed that many of the priests who had a fondness for the “romanist” ways and high-church liturgy, fancy vestments and the like, also seemed to have a certain fondness for men. This was commented on in many letters of the time. And today, there are definitely groups of gαys on the Internet (and perhaps in person?) who have a fondness for monarchism, the traditional mass, etc. especially in France this is a noticeable phenomenon. Probably because there are far more monarchists in France than USA. 

    So it’s not surprising that some of these men have become Traditional priests, today. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #197 on: April 26, 2020, 10:51:20 AM »
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  • Question: I completely agree that MV/CM is not the one who should be making these allegations, etc.  In your opinions, who would be credible to do this?
    I find the posts on this topic by Ladislaus to be credible.  He has a lot of background knowledge about the SSPX and many of the people involved and does not seem to have any negative agenda.  He is not a journalist, but these are the qualities that I would be looking for.

    On another forum where we are discussing this, I have linked to some of his posts here in which he tries to sort out the truth from the innuendo.  (I hope this is OK with you Ladislaus.  I assumed that you would not mind and so did not ask.)

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #198 on: April 26, 2020, 10:56:42 AM »
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  • TIA recently examined the SSPX’s  Urrutigoity case and found systematic mismanagement.

    Yes, there was likely mismanagement. But like Voris, TIA has an ax to grind against the SSPX, and always has done, and so neither is a good source for an honest account of the situation.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #199 on: April 26, 2020, 10:59:09 AM »
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  • Yes, there was likely mismanagement. But like Voris, TIA has an ax to grind against the SSPX, and always has done, and so neither is a good source for an honest account of the situation.
    and Meg has an ax to grind against TIA.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #200 on: April 26, 2020, 11:44:53 AM »
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  • I find the posts on this topic by Ladislaus to be credible.  He has a lot of background knowledge about the SSPX and many of the people involved and does not seem to have any negative agenda.  He is not a journalist, but these are the qualities that I would be looking for.

    On another forum where we are discussing this, I have linked to some of his posts here in which he tries to sort out the truth from the innuendo.  (I hope this is OK with you Ladislaus.  I assumed that you would not mind and so did not ask.)

    I'm fine with that, Jaynek.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #201 on: April 26, 2020, 11:47:03 AM »
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  • You would think, with the doctrinal strictness of Catholicism, and today, the Traditional kind, there wouldn’t be a lot of attraction for homos. 

    They're primarily attracted to the superior aesthetics of the Traditional Mass.  I also believe they consider it better cover for their activities, since by posing as doctrinally Traditional and conservative, they reduce the suspicion.  After all, the Church has traditionally been very forceful and firm in its condemnation of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #202 on: April 26, 2020, 11:52:13 AM »
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  • I've long wondered about the psychology of the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ predator who becomes a Traditional Catholic priest.

    Some are perhaps fighting their inclinations and break down.

    Others over time develop a very lax moral theology in which they think that certain activities are normal and not sinful.  So, for instance, with Fr. Benedict VanderPutten.  He admitted his activities but tried to justify them as just a way to create trust.  He reportedly admitted to fondling the young ladies and exposing his genitals to them, did not deny the accusation, but then stated it was to create trust.  Over time, I think that some of these guys actually convince themselves that this is OK.

    Fr. Urrutigoity made similar comments, that getting boys to go skinny dipping and also to expose themselves to him was to instill humility and trust.  I'm still not sure if they actually convinced themselves that this was the case or if it's was conscious nonsense.


    Offline Sam Smith

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #203 on: April 26, 2020, 11:53:41 AM »
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  • All of you who are focused on Voris, as though he were the real problem, are missing a very real supernatural component to these events:

    God is ALLOWING the SSPX to be SCOURGED. He has withdrawn His hand.

    Our Lord is allowing their crimes, misdeeds, mismanagements, coverups, abuse, scandals, inactions, to be brought to LIGHT.

    Michael Voris is just one of the tools with which Our Lord has chosen to make His will known. The same can be said of Jassy Jacas.

    The hand-wringing displayed here over the "attacks" on the Church (as though it were a bad thing) shows you are fundamentally missing the point.

    God is going to purify His Church, (the Novus Ordo, the SSPX, the FSSP, the Resistance, all of it) whether you like it or not!

    He is NOT going to allow you, or anyone, to be complicit in continuing to cover up for evil deeds. You are not going to stop Him!

    This is what the End of Days is all about. It is the unveiling of all evil. And we are close!

    "For there is nothing secret, that shall not be made manifest, nor anything hidden that will not be made known."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #204 on: April 26, 2020, 11:54:56 AM »
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  • I find the posts on this topic by Ladislaus to be credible.  He has a lot of background knowledge about the SSPX and many of the people involved and does not seem to have any negative agenda.  He is not a journalist, but these are the qualities that I would be looking for.

    On another forum where we are discussing this, I have linked to some of his posts here in which he tries to sort out the truth from the innuendo.  (I hope this is OK with you Ladislaus.  I assumed that you would not mind and so did not ask.)
    Although Lad seems impartial, I suspect that the very fact that he was in the SSPX and left (and not knowing what the reasons were) would not help his apparent credibility.  In addition, there are probably any number of his posts here that would not help either.  

    I do think he is trying to be objective here, but in trying to find a suitable person to accuse the SSPX, I do not think he would fit the bill either.  When I asked the question, I was wondering about someone outside of the SSPX, Resistance, Sede, Novus Ordo groups.  I'm not sure who that would/could be!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #205 on: April 26, 2020, 11:59:00 AM »
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  • All of you who are focused on Voris, as though he were the real problem, are missing a very real supernatural component to these events:

    God is ALLOWING the SSPX to be SCOURGED. He has withdrawn His hand.

    Our Lord is allowing their crimes, misdeeds, mismanagements, coverups, abuse, scandals, inactions, to be brought to LIGHT.

    Michael Voris is just one of the tools with which Our Lord has chosen to make His will known. The same can be said of Jassy Jacas.

    The hand-wringing displayed here over the "attacks" on the Church (as though it were a bad thing) shows you are fundamentally missing the point.

    God is going to purify His Church, (the Novus Ordo, the SSPX, the FSSP, the Resistance, all of it) whether you like it or not!

    He is NOT going to allow you, or anyone, to be complicit in continuing to cover up for evil deeds. You are not going to stop Him!

    This is what the End of Days is all about. It is the unveiling of all evil. And we are close!

    "For there is nothing secret, that shall not be made manifest, nor anything hidden that will not be made known."

    While Voris is not THE problem, he is certainly A problem.  I don't deny that God could be using Voris to flush some of this nonsense out into the open.  Yet I feel the need to sort through this stuff and distinguish between the real substantial problems ... and separate that from his attacks against SSPX and Traditional Catholicism.  I believe that his primary agenda is to leverage this as an attack against SSPX.  Also, a lot of his facts are just plain wrong.  So, for instance, he blamed Bishop Galaretta for protecting Urrutigoity, but Urrutigoity was in fact kicked out of the seminary in LaReja ... which is why he made his way to the U.S.  He really needs to do a better job of getting the facts straight and of not obscuring the actual facts with a lot of unsubstantiated insinuation.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #206 on: April 26, 2020, 12:11:49 PM »
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  • Although Lad seems impartial, I suspect that the very fact that he was in the SSPX and left (and not knowing what the reasons were) would not help his apparent credibility.  In addition, there are probably any number of his posts here that would not help either.  

    I do think he is trying to be objective here, but in trying to find a suitable person to accuse the SSPX, I do not think he would fit the bill either.  When I asked the question, I was wondering about someone outside of the SSPX, Resistance, Sede, Novus Ordo groups.  I'm not sure who that would/could be!

    Sure.  I don't think I'm in a position to make any credible accusations.  I can only contribute my own experiences, having known the entire SSJ group, Fr. Roberts, Fr. VanderPutten, etc. personally.  Conducting a proper investigation requires more time and resources than are available to me.

    Indeed, the SSPX would gain credibility if they opened themselves up to a credible, impartial investigator.  But I doubt that they're going to do that.

    As a clarification, I left the SSPX originally because I had found sedevacatism to be quite persuasive.  I'm still against their overall R&R position and of their more recent overtures to Rome.  So, where I do defend them, it's not because I am some slavish follower of the SSPX.  I resigned from the Board of Trustees for the chapel of an independent priest because I did not feel that I could in conscience sign a docuмent handing over the property to the SSPX after the priest's death.  But I did so very respectfully.

    I was actually pretty close with Bishop Williamson, so discussing his handling or, rather, mis-handling of the Urrutigoity situation brings me no joy, but rather a great deal of heartache.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #207 on: April 26, 2020, 12:15:01 PM »
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  • When I asked the question, I was wondering about someone outside of the SSPX, Resistance, Sede, Novus Ordo groups.  I'm not sure who that would/could be!

    Someone like Archbishop Vigano might fit the bill.  I believe that he's shown himself to be a man of integrity.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #208 on: April 26, 2020, 12:23:48 PM »
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  • Michael Voris is just one of the tools with which Our Lord has chosen to make His will known. The same can be said of Jassy Jacas.

    The hand-wringing displayed here over the "attacks" on the Church (as though it were a bad thing) shows you are fundamentally missing the point.

    God is going to purify His Church, (the Novus Ordo, the SSPX, the FSSP, the Resistance, all of it) whether you like it or not!

    He is NOT going to allow you, or anyone, to be complicit in continuing to cover up for evil deeds. You are not going to stop Him!

    This is what the End of Days is all about. It is the unveiling of all evil. And we are close!

    "For there is nothing secret, that shall not be made manifest, nor anything hidden that will not be made known."

    I understand that you believe that Our Lord is using Michael Voris as His chosen tool. But just because some of us do not find Voris to be credible doesn't mean that we are complicit in covering up for evil deeds, as you have accused above. Do you understand the difference?

    We know full-well that the SSPX is far from perfect.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Michael Voris Publishes Article on SSPX Abuse
    « Reply #209 on: April 26, 2020, 12:48:07 PM »
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  • I understand that you believe that Our Lord is using Michael Voris as His chosen tool. But just because some of us do not find Voris to be credible doesn't mean that we are complicit in covering up for evil deeds, as you have accused above. Do you understand the difference?

    We know full-well that the SSPX is far from perfect.

    I agree.  This is not some simple binary proposition, where someone has to either completely agree with Voris or completely agree with the SSPX.  Truth, as St Augustine said, usually lies somewhere in the middle.