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Author Topic: Mass Postures for the Laity  (Read 1229 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Mass Postures for the Laity
« on: December 10, 2020, 03:04:44 AM »
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    • I would like to start a thread about the mass postures, however, before I can start, I would need for someone to post a picture of the chart on page 72 of the Lasance missal, for I do not know how to do it.

    From the 1937 Lasance Missal   http://archive.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/13/07/17/15-38-26_0.pdf   see page 72 for a chart of the postures for Low Mass, Missa Cantata, and High mass, according to the American custom.

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    Offline SoldierofCtK

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #1 on: December 10, 2020, 04:12:24 AM »
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    • How's this? I'm looking forward to the discussion, albeit from the sidelines.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #2 on: December 10, 2020, 08:36:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: SoldierofCtK on December 10, 2020, 04:12:24 AM




    Thank you very much SoldierofCtK that's perfect.


    That chart shows the postures being used in the USA in 1937. Also from the same 1937 Lasance Missal   http://archive.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/13/07/17/15-38-26_0.pdf we have the following description of the three variants of masses. (I have added the dates in which they originated): 

    High Mass: that which is celebrated by a priest, assisted by deacon and subdeacon, with all the solemnity of chant, incense and full ceremonial. 


    Low Mass: is said by a priest alone, with one or two servers, and is a shortened or simplified form of the High Mass. (late 8th century)


    Missa Cantata: The so-called sung Mass, or Missa Cantata, is a modem compromise between a Low and a High Mass. At a Missa Cantata the ceremonies are somewhat abbreviated because of the absence of the sacred ministers; incense is not permitted, and the celebrant himself sings the Gospel in the deacon's stead. (Late 18th century)

    Also from the same 1937 Lasance Missal, what seems to be directions that may be followed outside of the USA? (my highlighting):

    Low Mass- When the celebrant enters the sanctuary, the laity rise and remain standing till he descends to the foot of the altar to begin Mass. They then kneel and remain so throughout the Mass, except during the two Gospels, during which they stand. (Rubricre Generales Missalis, Tit. 17, n. 2.) De Herdt (Vol.I, n. 146) says that this rubric is not preceptive but directive only. Note - When the last Gospel is that of St. John they make a simple genuflection with the priest at the words "Et Verbum," etc., then rise and remain standing until the priest reaches the foot of the altar.


    High Mass -  The rubrics give no direction. Gavantus (Pars I, Tit. 17) and Pouget (Institutiones Catholicre in modum Catecheseos, Pars 3, Sect. 2, cap 7, § 20) say that the people may conform to the rules given for those who are in choir. Hence the people- .

    1. Stand-from the time the celebrant enters the sanctuary to the beginning of the Mass.
    2. Kneel-from the beginning of the Mass until the celebrant ascends the altar after the Confiteor.
    3. Stand-from the time the celebrant ascends the altai until he goes to the bench after the intonation of the Gloria. During the singing of the Kyrie eleison the people sit if the celebrant sits.
    4. Sit-while the choir sings the Gloria.
    5. Stand,-from the time the celebrant rises from the bench to the end of the Orations.
    6. Sit-from the beginning of the Epistle to the Dominus vobiscuм before the Gospel.
    7. Stand-during the Gospel and the recitation of the Credo; during the latter they make a genuflection on one knee at Et incarnaws est.
    8. Sit· when the celebrant takes his seat, and whilst the Credo is being sung by the choir, except at the Et incarnatus est...et homo factus est, when they kneel on both knees.
    9. Stand· when the celebrant rises to return to the altar and remain standing whilst he sings Dominus vobiscuм and Oremus.
    10. Sit. from the Oremus to the beginning ofthe Preface· Per omnia saecula saeculorum. NOTE.• During solemn Mass when incense is used the people stand during the incensing of the congregation. Remain standing for the Preface.
    11. Stand . From the beginning of the Preface until the celebrant begins the Sanctus.
    12. Kneel· from the Hosanna, etc., until the Peromniasaecula saeculorum before the Pater Noster.
    NOTE. - The S. C. Indulg. issued a decree June 12, 1907, according to which all who look at the Sacred Host when it is elevated at Mass or when the Blessed Sacrament is solemnly exposed and recite the ejaculation "My Lord and My God." may gain an indulgence of seven years and seven times forty days, besides a plenary indulgence once a week if this is done daily and the sacraments are received. Hence the laity should bow when the celebrant genuflects, look at the Sacred Host when the celebrant elevates it, and bow again when the celebrant genuflects after elevating it.
    13. Stand· from the Pater Noster until the Agnus Dei.
    14. Kneel· from the Agnus Dei until the Dominus vobiscuм before the Postcommunion.
    15. Stand· during the Postcommunion and remain standing until the celebrant gives the Blessing.
    16. Kneel· during the Blessing.

    17. Stand· during the Last Gospel and remain standing until the celebrant has left the sanctuary. NOTE.• When the Last Gospelis that of St. John, the people should make a simple genuflection with the priest.at the words ''Et Verbum," etc., then rise and remain standing until the celebrant has left the sanctuary.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #3 on: December 10, 2020, 09:04:15 AM »
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    • What jumps out at me, is that it says there are no rubrics for the postures of the laity at High Mass, and that for Low Mass, though there are general rubrics, they are not preceptive (precepts of the Church, like that you have to go to mass on Sundays and Holy Days, communion at least once a year...) they are only directive. That means it can be changed, and that the postures come from tradition and the customs of the country prevail.

    Let's discuss the simplest mass first, the Low Mass. Notice that the custom of the USA differs only in that Americans sit after the Offertory rather than the instruction in the   (Rubricre Generales Missalis, Tit. 17, n. 2.) De Herdt (Vol.I, n. 146)  where it instructs to kneel and remain so throughout the Mass, except during the two Gospels.


    Does this mean that a priest can change the postures in his USA chapel to conform with Rubricre Generales Missalis, Tit. 17, n. 2.) De Herdt (Vol.I, n. 146)? The answer is no, simply because it is not the custom of the country. Moreover, it just makes sense, since if each priest were to make his own changes, it would cause anarchy in the pews from all the visitors and those that have not caught on to the change or just do not want to change.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #4 on: December 10, 2020, 03:23:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 10, 2020, 09:04:15 AM
    Let's discuss the simplest mass first, the Low Mass. Notice that the custom of the USA on the chart only differs in that Americans sit after the Offertory rather than the instruction in the   (Rubricre Generales Missalis, Tit. 17, n. 2.) De Herdt (Vol.I, n. 146)  where it instructs to kneel and remain so throughout the Mass, except during the two Gospels.
    Has anyone attended a traditional Roman Rite Low Mass in the USA where the postures are different than the USA custom on the chart?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #5 on: December 10, 2020, 05:39:53 PM »
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    • Some of his distinctions are puzzling, like his reference to Solemn High Mass sung by "three priests".  What if it's one priest and an actual deacon and and an actual sub-deacon?  It's not necessary to have "three priests" for there to be a Solemn High Mass.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #6 on: December 10, 2020, 05:43:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 10, 2020, 03:23:33 PM
    Has anyone attended a traditional Roman Rite Low Mass in the USA where the postures are different than the USA custom on the chart?

    Yes, one SSPX chapel I sometimes attend has the congregation standing for the Gloria and sitting for the Epistle even during a Low Mass.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #7 on: December 11, 2020, 09:06:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 10, 2020, 05:43:17 PM
    Yes, one SSPX chapel I sometimes attend has the congregation standing for the Gloria and sitting for the Epistle even during a Low Mass.
    Sounds to me like that they do the same postures for Low Mass and the Missa Cantata, that is why they stand at the Gloria and sit at the Epistle at Low Mass. I think it is the congregation do it, not that the priests has told them to do it that way.

    (as an aside:  From the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1907 -  "A Sung Mass (Missa Cantata) is a modern compromise. It is really a Low Mass, since the essence of a High Mass is not the music but the deacon and subdeacon.)
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #8 on: December 11, 2020, 09:14:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 10, 2020, 09:04:15 AM
    Let's discuss the simplest mass first, the Low Mass. Notice that the custom of the USA differs only in that Americans stand for the Credo and sit after the Offertory rather than the instruction in the   (Rubricre Generales Missalis, Tit. 17, n. 2.) De Herdt (Vol.I, n. 146)  where it instructs to kneel and remain so throughout the Mass, except during the two Gospels.
    I missed stating that the custom in America also differs in that we stand for the Creed, I corrected it above.
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #9 on: December 11, 2020, 02:26:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 11, 2020, 09:14:00 AM

    I missed stating that the custom in America also differs in that we stand for the Creed, I corrected it above.

    Your "we" here refers to the congregation, of course. But the practice as it affects servers has become inconsistent. In my youth, right through at least the first stage of the conciliar revolution (i.e., the first version of the NOM, introduced in November 1964), altar boys always knelt during the Credo, even at high and solemn masses.* I mention this because nowadays I see altar boys at Trad masses standing during the Credo roughly as often as I see them kneeling. I am pretty sure that simple ignorance is at work here rather than disrespect for the rubrics.

    Altar boys standing during the Credo is, however, far less jarring than what invariably happens today at places where the congregation is either permitted or (Lord help us) encouraged to sing along during high and solemn masses. I refer to the misguided and bizarre practice of sitting when the priest sits during the Credo (or the Gloria, if he bothers to sit then) but continuing to sing while seated. When adults and children were admitted to my childhood parish's choir, virtually the first thing they heard was that whenever they were singing, they were to be on their feet.
    ________________

    *Obviously, they got on their feet and accompanied the celebrant to the sedilia when he went there.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #10 on: December 11, 2020, 03:34:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: claudel on December 11, 2020, 02:26:41 PM
    Your "we" here refers to the congregation, of course. But the practice as it affects servers has become inconsistent. In my youth, right through at least the first stage of the conciliar revolution (i.e., the first version of the NOM, introduced in November 1964), altar boys always knelt during the Credo, even at high and solemn masses.* I mention this because nowadays I see altar boys at Trad masses standing during the Credo roughly as often as I see them kneeling. I am pretty sure that simple ignorance is at work here rather than disrespect for the rubrics.

    Altar boys standing during the Credo is, however, far less jarring than what invariably happens today at places where the congregation is either permitted or (Lord help us) encouraged to sing along during high and solemn masses. I refer to the misguided and bizarre practice of sitting when the priest sits during the Kyrie, the  Credo (or the Gloria, if he bothers to sit then) but continuing to sing while seated. When adults and children were admitted to my childhood parish's choir, virtually the first thing they heard was that whenever they were singing, they were to be on their feet.
    ________________

    *Obviously, they got on their feet and accompanied the celebrant to the sedilia when he went there.
    There that completes it. 
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #11 on: December 11, 2020, 03:50:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 11, 2020, 03:34:13 PM

    There that completes it.

    I never attended or served a mass where the priest sat during the Kyrie. Have you? I have seen it done only in televised masses from Europe, where the music was from a mass setting by Mozart or Haydn and the Kyrie took five to ten minutes to complete, and that was more than fifty years ago. As plainchant rendition of the Kyrie by a choir might take two minutes, there is really no need for the celebrant to sit.

    Also with regard to sitting, when I served missa cantata and solemn requiem masses (the latter just once) as a boy and teenager, some but not all priests went to the sedilia during the Dies Irae.
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #12 on: December 11, 2020, 03:57:39 PM »
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    • Last Trad: Perhaps as an Advent penance, please consider reducing or eliminating your use of oversize and boldface type in your comments. The sensation it produces is akin to being shouted at nonstop in an elevator. Surely anyone who fails to get a point you are making can ask for a clarification.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #13 on: December 11, 2020, 07:05:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: claudel on December 11, 2020, 03:50:55 PM
    I never attended or served a mass where the priest sat during the Kyrie. Have you?
    Yes, every so often the French priests in our USA SSPX chapel do it, it is quite an awkward situation, the congregation is singing the Kyrie and they sit down with the priest in the middle of the singing. It is a striking reminder that the laity should not be singing.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Mass Postures for the Laity
    « Reply #14 on: December 12, 2020, 12:15:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 11, 2020, 07:05:05 PM
    It is a striking reminder that the laity should not be singing.

    "In particular, among the people, Gregorian chant is to be restored, so they may more strongly be participators in the sacred liturgy as they were before." (Pius X)
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