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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 23751 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #270 on: August 31, 2018, 07:00:10 PM »
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  • So far as introducing moderns into the equation, I do not believe they are disqualified simply because they are moderns: Men like Dr. Roberto de Mattei or Monsignor Piolanti, and Monsignor Gherardini (this latter being a consultor to the causes of saints until his death last year) will have valuable and relevant contributions to make in the matter...
    Rat poison is 99% nutritious food. 

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #271 on: August 31, 2018, 07:01:57 PM »
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  • But at the same time, you have chosen to ignore those same traditional writers, such as Pope Benedict XIV (who acknowledged and acquiesced in the fact that "many great named theologians deny the infallibility of canonizations") and Cajetan who rejected even the possibility of infallibility flatly.
    Where are these quotes and who brought them to your attention? Those are just two people, is that it?


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #272 on: August 31, 2018, 07:55:42 PM »
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  • According to Mary of Agreda, our Lady revealed to her that [...] Hell [...] was reserved for bad Catholics.

    Antiochus Epiphanes in heaven? Herod in heaven? Pilate in heaven? All who died in the flood in heaven? The wife of Lot in heaven? The citizens of Sodom and of Gomorrah in heaven?

    I have seen bad writings attributed to Mary of Agreda. There are many apocrypha out there.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #273 on: August 31, 2018, 07:58:37 PM »
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  • There have been many public sinners, many heretics, many usurpers in these last 50 years of the Church, but God still wills that all men be saved.  

    JPII was a horrible example for a pope, yet as long as he did not despair as Judas did, he would have graces to repent.  “Revenge is mine” saith the Lord and it’s not our job to hand out justice.  As St Padre Pio often said, this world is full of God's mercy; justice awaits us at death.  

    Under normal times, JPII (and many others) wouldn’t have been canonized so soon, if ever.  But they were, so all we can do is explain to others that them being canonized doesn’t mean they are good examples.  

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #274 on: August 31, 2018, 08:02:58 PM »
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  • There have been many public sinners, many heretics, many usurpers in these last 50 years of the Church, but God still wills that all men be saved.

    God does not will uncontrite sinners, heretics etc. saved. God wills that they burn in hell.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #275 on: August 31, 2018, 08:08:20 PM »
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  • JPII was a horrible example for a pope, yet as long as he did not despair as Judas did, he would have graces to repent.

    There is no evidence that he may have repented any of his own heretical and absurd teachings.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #276 on: August 31, 2018, 08:13:42 PM »
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  • Under normal times, JPII (and many others) wouldn’t have been canonized so soon, if ever.  But they were, so all we can do is explain to others that them being canonized doesn’t mean they are good examples.

    You could just as well explain to others that Martin Luther is not (yet) canonized, but a good example.

    Trying to destroy Catholicism, that would work too.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #277 on: August 31, 2018, 09:33:42 PM »
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  • Antiochus Epiphanes in heaven? Herod in heaven? Pilate in heaven? All who died in the flood in heaven? The wife of Lot in heaven? The citizens of Sodom and of Gomorrah in heaven?

    I have seen bad writings attributed to Mary of Agreda. There are many apocrypha out there.
    I read the 4 volume set in English and I don't remember ever reading any of those things. Sounds like someone's pulling your leg. What pages are each one on? I can look it up for you.

    All who died in the flood are in Heaven?
    All the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah are in Heaven?
    Herod in Heaven?
    Pilate in Heaven?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #278 on: September 01, 2018, 04:36:10 AM »
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  • There is no evidence that he may have repented any of his own heretical and absurd teachings.
    Yes.  The reason I brought up public sinners is because of the comments about JPII's so-called repentance before death.  There is no evidence of this and the Catholic Church wouldn't have even given him a Catholic Funeral Mass let alone canonized him.  

    How a Catholic can say with a straight face that they can tell others that, even though the so-called Church canonized a particular person (especially a so-called POPE), they just weren't a "good example".  Because the Catholic Church canonizes folks that just aren't good examples. :facepalm:  

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #279 on: September 01, 2018, 05:53:05 AM »
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  • I read the 4 volume set in English and I don't remember ever reading any of those things.

    Here's what you wrote:

    According to Mary of Agreda, our Lady revealed to her that Judas was sent to the worst tortures in Hell,  that he was the first in the history of the world to be cast into it, that it was reserved for bad Catholics.

    If hell was "reserved for bad Catholics", then Pilate would be in heaven.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #280 on: September 01, 2018, 06:43:03 AM »
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  • The "last rites" of JPII's time was not the Sacrament of Extreme Unction, but the healing of the sick. (p.s.- do you believe JXXIII and JPII are Saints?)
    I believe they escaped hell by virtue of the last rites received. That will take great faith for some to accept, but the reason God created that sacrament was specifically to save sinners from hell in their last agony. Whether the NO sacrament has the power to save is debatable, yet the rule is that Church always presumes validity until proven otherwise. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #281 on: September 01, 2018, 06:50:34 AM »
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  • That's logically irrelevant to the point under discussion.  Whether Extreme Unction was received or not (besides, these men received "Anointing of the Sick" and not traditional Extreme Unction), no one can rule out the possibility that they are in fact in heaven.  What's at issue here is the opposite, whether it's OK to entertain doubts about whether they are in heaven.
    The NO version of the sacrament was not invented when JXIII died, he received the traditional sacrament.

    The reason it is relevant to the discussion is because it is through faith in the sacrament they received that makes the whole idea of invalid canonizations another iniquitous sede adventure in superfluousness. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #282 on: September 01, 2018, 07:04:00 AM »
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  • Ah, yes, Stubbornian ecclesiology, whereby the Church's Magisterium could become 99.9% corrupt and the Universal Discipline of the Church can fail.  So much or the "Holy" part of Holy Catholic Church, eh?  Your understanding of the Church is at once grotesque and blasphemous.

    Vatican I defined dogmatically only this type of papal infallibility (and that of the OUM) ... but it is widely believed and taught that canonizations and the Church's Universal Discipline are also infallible.  Vatican I just never got around to defining these.
    Ah yes, poor lad's NO theological ideas resurface. Yes, today, all sorts of ideas expand upon the doctrine of the popes' infallibility - even includes the "Church's Universal Discipline", whatever that is.

    FYI, V1 defined the doctrine of the pope's infallibility in all it's completeness, and even clearly stated that no one is permitted to expand upon that doctrine under the pretext of a more profound understanding - so no matter who else (some 19th/20th century theologians) did it, you need to stop doing that and accept the teaching of V1 as written.

    The Church's magisterium is 100% infallible, always has been, always will be and until you accept what the Church's Magisterium is, apparently you'll not see the stupidity of your continued repeating of the same foolish and false accusation that I believe it could become 99.9% corrupt - ridiculous.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #283 on: September 01, 2018, 09:41:59 AM »
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  • Yes.  The reason I brought up public sinners is because of the comments about JPII's so-called repentance before death.  There is no evidence of this and the Catholic Church wouldn't have even given him a Catholic Funeral Mass let alone canonized him.  

    How a Catholic can say with a straight face that they can tell others that, even though the so-called Church canonized a particular person (especially a so-called POPE), they just weren't a "good example".  Because the Catholic Church canonizes folks that just aren't good examples. :facepalm:  
    I agree it's contradictory to Catholic principles, 2Vermont.
    I believe that the modern canonizations were forceful and defiant canonizations of the Council, and actually a mockery of the sacred.  The shame of it is that for many Catholics it has caused them to doubt the integrity of earlier canonizations. 

    Charity requires me to want and hope that they are in Heaven, or will be.  However, as someone else pointed out, sainthood is supposed to mean so much more than that.

    And Stubborn, my friend, by your standard every Catholic who received Extreme Unction near death is a Saint and at some point should be canonized.  Don't think so.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #284 on: September 01, 2018, 10:28:06 AM »
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  • Where are these quotes and who brought them to your attention? Those are just two people, is that it?

    Ironically, he is quoting a Pope with a complete opposite view, as his support. He is quoting a Pope who disagrees with him in principle by affirming that canonizations are in fact De Fide.

    The only reason he is quoting Benedict IV is because in his work, the pope allegedly said that some theologians do not consider canonizations to be so, as if theologians had more authority and doctrinal relevance than a Supreme Pontiff.

    What the pope is emphasizing is that these theologians are wrong.

    They are also condemned for daring to doubt the assistance of the Holy Ghost when the Pope canonizes a saint, preventing him from erring.

    So he is quoting Benedict IV as his support but this is what the Pope thinks of those like SJ:

    Quote
    "If anyone dared to assert that the Pontiff had erred in this or that canonisation, we shall say that he is, if not a heretic, at least temerarious, a giver of scandal to the whole Church, an insulter of the saints, a favourer of those heretics who deny the Church’s authority in canonizing saints, savouring of heresy by giving unbelievers an occasion to mock the faithful, the assertor of an erroneous opinion and liable to very grave penalties.”


    As far as Cajetan, I would be very interested to read where it is he denies the infallibility of Papal canonizations.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.