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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18967 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #240 on: August 31, 2018, 05:40:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on August 30, 2018, 11:46:27 PM
    Right below that paragraph it reads:

    Repeatedly refuted throughout this thread: “the common teaching” is only 300 years-old, is not a teaching of the magisterium, but of theologians, and prior to this recent opinion was contradicted by “many great named theologians” per BXIV.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #241 on: August 31, 2018, 05:45:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on August 30, 2018, 11:56:22 PM
    There is no need for such theological distinctions in this regard. It is very simple: if Francis is Pope, then JPII is in Heaven at least since the 27 of April of 2014, and we are bound to believe it however heartbreaking may seem.

    We do not have to like it, but it is just the way it is.

    “...because for a limited time only, Glamor Shots by Deb are only $9.99.”

    No need for such theological distinctions?

    Only for the insane sedes (to whom everything is in fallible), does a comment like that sound orthodox and reasonable.

    In reality, what you are really saying is “there is no need for Vatican I” which you disdain for curtailing your universal infallibilism.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #242 on: August 31, 2018, 08:11:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 31, 2018, 05:45:59 AM
    “...because for a limited time only, Glamor Shots by Deb are only $9.99.”


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #243 on: August 31, 2018, 08:13:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 31, 2018, 05:40:55 AM
    Repeatedly refuted throughout this thread: “the common teaching” is only 300 years-old

    And before that it was taught by St. Thomas.  Yet Johnson calls the teaching of St. Thomas "indefensible".   :laugh1:
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #244 on: August 31, 2018, 08:22:00 AM »
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    • Quote
    In reality, what you are really saying is “there is no need for Vatican I” which you disdain for curtailing your universal infallibilism.
    They can't stand that sedevacantism is only a theory.  They look for concrete evidence and logic to make the theory more sound so they resort to gross generalizations, like "canonizations are infallible and heretical to deny" or "the magisterium of V2 is 100% infallible and heretical to deny".  If they would let the facts lead them, they would find the truth - that both sedevacantism and R&R are theories, neither of which is perfect, each having problems and solutions to the current crisis. 

    Uncertaintly is not a bad thing.  God puts many of us through trials and tribulations which makes us ask for His help.  That's the purpose of uncertainty - to make us humble.  If ALL of us were more humble through this trial of the Church, we'd have more unity.  If we could accept that there is no "one theory" to this crisis, we might be able to get along.   But many can't accept uncertainty, so they resort to distortions.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #245 on: August 31, 2018, 08:36:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 31, 2018, 08:13:17 AM
    And before that it was taught by St. Thomas.  Yet Johnson calls the teaching of St. Thomas "indefensible".   :laugh1:
    LOL, it is really very simple, all that the VatII sect needs to do to make all of their canonizations valid for the writer SJ is for them to canonize Abp. Lefebvre
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #246 on: August 31, 2018, 09:12:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 30, 2018, 05:35:56 PM
    Mons. Brunero Gherardini, on canonization and infallibility









    Mons. Bruno Gherardini is just another Vatican II priest, like B-16, or JPII. The OP article writer is also a Vatican II "theologian". If the writer SJ wants to convince traditionalists, I would advise that he quote direct sources from times past, and leave out all the personal opinions and detractions. An outsider reading this thread, after a while, will just ignore all of the postings of people who say nothing of value (personal opinions and detractions) and eventually completely ignore everything the writer posts.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #247 on: August 31, 2018, 09:57:09 AM »
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    And before that it was taught by St. Thomas.
    Look, the fact that St Thomas taught it doesn't carry as much weight as you suggest.  He's one theologian among 100s.  So for you to point him out, as if his opinion is the Church's, is the same as BOD'ers incorrectly elevating St Alphonsus' opinion on BOD.

    The facts, so far, that we've uncovered on canonizations are this:
    1.  There is a NEAR unanimous agreement by theologians that they are infallible.  But still, not unanimous.
    2.  There has been NO clear teaching by the Church that they are infallible.
    3.  Church officials both before (Pope Leo X) and after (V2 officials posted) Vatican 2 say that canonizations are either 1) a certain truth, or 2) are  "definitive" but not infallible.

    Previous to V2, the Church used canonizations to declare those in heaven whom She wished to put forth as an example of heroic sanctity.  Thus, she only canonized the "cream of the crop".
    Post V2, the conciliar Church seems to have taken a liberal approach (shocking!) and has "lowered the bar" to canonize those who did not necessarily live heroicly virtuous lives.

    Moral of the story:  Canonizations ONLY say that the person is in heaven.  It is NOT a condonement, approval or judgement on the sanctity practiced by the individual.  Those who infer that the canonized person was "saintly" or "heroicly virtuous" do so only because they assume the post-V2 purpose in canonizing is the same as the pre-V2 purpose.  These purposes are different.

    So I can agree that JPII and John XXIII are in heaven, because the Church says so.  Does that mean they didn't scandalize, didn't promote heresy, or didn't corrupt Church traditions, etc?  No, it just means that the Church is saying they repented of their sins before death and saved their soul.  What they did or didn't do in this life, from a moral standpoint, is not part of a canonization (in the V2 Church's view).
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #248 on: August 31, 2018, 10:07:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 30, 2018, 11:54:56 PM
    V2 doesn't follow the "solemn process used since the 9th century" so you're comparing apples to oranges.  V2 has "changed the rules" just like with everything else, which technically, they can (in this case).

    What they meant by such process is simply the official judgement of the Pope in approving any canonization of persons proposed for public veneration (which is required since then).

    The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how all those VII saints are NOT PAPAL canonizations.  
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #249 on: August 31, 2018, 10:13:39 AM »
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    • But the importance of safeguarding the rightful veneration of true saints in the Catholic Church is such, that even the earlier non-Papal canonizations which occurred before that time and now are universally accepted like St. Agnes, are believed to be De Fide (tenenda).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #250 on: August 31, 2018, 10:19:15 AM »
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    • That "process change" argument must be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  Infallibility is not dependent on the intelligence or due diligence or learning or virtue of men.  It's a guarantee given for the protection of the Church.  At no point did Vatican I lay down as a condition for infallibility that the Pope must have thoroughly investigated any given issue before promulgating it with the full weight of his authority.  Maybe I'll dig into it a little and find that Pius XII didn't do an adequate amount of due diligence before promulgating the dogma of the Assumption.  That would relieve me of my obligation to believe in it.  What utter hogwash.  You guys show abject desperation in sinking to such depths of idiocy.  You've become pathetic in your groveling attempts to defend the V2 Papal claimants.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #251 on: August 31, 2018, 10:20:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 31, 2018, 08:36:58 AM
    LOL, it is really very simple, all that the VatII sect needs to do to make all of their canonizations valid for the writer SJ is for them to canonize Abp. Lefebvre

    I really don't think that ABP Lefebvre ever dared to believe that the Church can err in something as serious as the canonization of saints. The only reason the SSPX and the like are forced to go this far and fall into a true theological oblivion is because their position gets more and more unattainable half a century after the Council, and with every new insult coming from the conciliar anti-popes.  
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #252 on: August 31, 2018, 10:23:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on August 31, 2018, 10:20:35 AM
    I really don't think that ABP Lefebvre ever dared to believe that the Church can err in something as serious as the canonization of saints. The only reason the SSPX and the like are forced to go this far and fall into a true theological oblivion is because their position gets more and more unattainable half a century after the Council, and with every new insult coming from the conciliar anti-popes.  

    Yes, these types of arguments are signs of desperation.  But at the same time they are becoming more and more "Old Catholic" almost with each day that passes.  They have such a mental issue with even entertaining the possibility of sedevacantism (+Lefebvre openly entertained it) that they'll malign Holy Mother Church rather than admit the possibility of sedevacante.  They'll uphold the honor of the pedophile-coverup-artist Jorge Bergoglio at the cost of the Church's honor.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #253 on: August 31, 2018, 10:25:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 31, 2018, 10:19:15 AM
    That "process change" argument must be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  Infallibility is not dependent on the intelligence or due diligence or learning or virtue of men.  It's a guarantee given for the protection of the Church.  At no point did Vatican I lay down as a condition for infallibility that the Pope must have thoroughly investigated any given issue before promulgating it with the full weight of his authority.  Maybe I'll dig into it a little and find that Pius XII didn't do an adequate amount of due diligence before promulgating the dogma of the Assumption.  That would relieve me of my obligation to believe in it.  What utter hogwash.  You guys show abject desperation in sinking to such depths of idiocy.  You've become pathetic in your groveling attempts to defend the V2 Papal claimants.

    I agree. If the infallibility rested upon the methods and processes, then every single saint ever canonized in time could be thought to be doubtful. After all, nobody really knows if due processes and formalities were then accomplished for every case.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #254 on: August 31, 2018, 10:34:03 AM »
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    • In the final analysis, if the Church can pronounce:

    Quote
    For the honour of the blessed Trinity, the exaltation of the Catholic faith and the increase of the Christian life, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul and our own, after due deliberation and frequent prayer for divine assistance, and having sought the counsel of many of our brother bishops, we declare and define blessed John XXII and John Paul II to be saints, and we enroll them among the saints, decreeing that they are to be venerated as such by the whole Church, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    Benedict XVI added the following prayers to the canonisation ceremony: 'Most Holy Father, Holy Church, trusting in the Lord's promise to send upon her the Spirit of Truth, who in every age keeps the Supreme Magisterium free from error, most earnestly beseeches Your Holiness to enroll these, her elect, among the saints', spoken by the person presenting the saint to the pope; and 'Let us, then, invoke the Holy Spirit, the Giver of life, that he may enlighten our minds and that Christ the Lord may not permit his Church to err in a matter of such importance', spoken by the pope himself.

    and be mistaken, then you turn the Church into a joke.

    I earlier stated that the formula explicitly meets all the notes of infallibility and does everything but use the word "infallibly".  I now amend that.  Benedict the XVI added an explicit reference to the error-free Magisterium.  He thereby EXPLICITLY invoked infallibility.  "... that Christ the Lord may not permit his Church to err in a matter of such importance".  Case closed, Johnson and Pax.


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