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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18702 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #195 on: August 29, 2018, 05:59:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on August 29, 2018, 11:46:08 AM
    No, the condemned error as proclaimed in a General Council just shows the gravity of saying that a canonized saint is in reality, damned, after the Apostolic See has declared him to be reigning in Heaven. That is the point Benedict XIV was making.

    It is not *my* Wycliffe reference; but the Pope's.

    Sloppy thinking:

    Saying that canonizations are not infallible is not the same thing as saying those canonized are damned.

    What is not sloppy thinking is recognizing that Vatican I made it clear that (most) canonizations could possibly be de fide, having no basis in faith (scripture or tradition).
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #196 on: August 29, 2018, 06:01:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on August 29, 2018, 12:27:37 PM
    Do not underestimate the five volumes work of future Pope Benedict XIV as if it had been a minor irrelevant private letter.  

    The substance of his De Servorum Dei Beatifιcatione et de Beatorum Canonizatione was incorporated into the Code of Canon Law of 1917, which governed until the promulgation of the revised Codex Iuris Canonici in 1983 by JPII.

    Oh, believe me, I do not underestimate it.

    I especially do not underestimate where he acknowledges "many great minded theologians deny the infallibility of canonizations."
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #197 on: August 30, 2018, 08:01:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 29, 2018, 05:56:26 PM
    Do you realize what you just said?

    "Canonizations are a matter of faith."

    Umm...even though they are not part of the faith (scripture or tradition, or derived from it)????

    Listen, idiot, something can be a matter of faith even if it's not directly revealed (or implicitly derived from it).  So, for instance, the legitimacy of Pius XII is a matter of faith and must be believed with the certainty of faith.  As pointed out by, oh, pretty much every theologian, anything that logically relates to matters of faith can be defined by the Church.  Any proposition whose logical consequences run counter to matters divinely revealed can in fact be infallibly defined.  Matters of DISCIPLINE which while not directly revealed are proposed infallibly by the Church.  Canon Law is proposed infallibly to the Universal Church.

    You limit matters of faith to de fide divina, whereas there are also matters to be held de fide ecclesiastica.  Something can be a "matter of faith" without actually being de fide divina, moron.  "Matter of faith", as used by Vatican I, distinguishes these from matters of natural knowledge.  But it's even within the competence of the Church to infallibly condemn propositions of natural science if they implicitly run counter to matters of faith.

    Run along now, you heretical baboon.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #198 on: August 30, 2018, 09:03:26 AM »
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    • Loudestmouth-

    Leaving aside the irony of a sede referencing the papacy as a dogmatic fact to defend the infallibility of canonizations (and the inherent arbitrarity of applying it to Pius XII, but not Francis), I have addressed and surmounted the dogmatic fact objection at least three times in this thread, and you have ignored it each time:

    The only canonizations which would qualify as dogmatic facts protected from error would be those subsisting in the faith (scripture or tradition), like the biblical saints, or Jerome/Athanasius, etc., because it is scripture/tradition which provides the infallibility.

    Consequently, if there is no direct or indirect (dogmatic fact) connection with the faith (scripture or tradition), there is no infallibility.

    You will not be able to surmount this argument, you can only continue to talk past it (like Deb from Napoleon Dynamite).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #199 on: August 30, 2018, 09:05:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 30, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
    Theonly canonizations which would qualify as dogmatic facts protected from error would be those subsisting in the faith (scripture or tradition), like the biblical saints, or Jerome/Athanasius, etc., because it is scripture/tradition which provides the infallibility.

    Did the legitimacy of Pius XII "subsist" in the faith?  (Did you steal this word from Vatican II?)
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #200 on: August 30, 2018, 09:08:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 30, 2018, 09:05:15 AM
    Did the legitimacy of Pius XII "subsist" in the faith?  (Did you steal this word from Vatican II?)

    Deb to Napoleon Dynamite: “Would you like to look like this?

    Napoleon: “That’s a picture of a girl.”

    Deb: “Because for a limited time only Glamor Shots by Deb are only $9.99.”
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #201 on: August 30, 2018, 09:11:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 30, 2018, 09:08:26 AM
    Deb to Napoleon Dynamite: “Would you like to look like this?

    Napoleon: “That’s a picture of a girl.”

    Deb: “Because for a limited time only Glamor Shots by Deb are only $9.99.”

    Johnson has cracked mentally ... because he can't answer a simple "Yes or No" question.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #202 on: August 30, 2018, 09:11:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 30, 2018, 09:05:15 AM
    Did the legitimacy of Pius XII "subsist" in the faith?  (Did you steal this word from Vatican II?)

    Impressive:

    A derail attempt, evasion, and contradiction of your own previous post, all packed into two short sentences.

    Bravo.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #203 on: August 30, 2018, 09:12:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 30, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
    Impressive:

    A derail attempt, evasion, and contradiction of your own previous post, all packed into two short sentences.

    Bravo.

    You refuse to answer because you know that it'll undermine everything you've been babbling nonsensically about this entire thread.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #204 on: August 30, 2018, 09:17:30 AM »
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    • a gentle reminder:

    Quote
    De fide ecclesiastica (truth of ecclesiastical faith)

    These truths are infallible, although not contained in Revelation. They were promulgated by the sole authority of the Church. An example of de fide ecclesiastica truth is the lawfulness of communion under one kind. These truths oblige Catholics as much as the revealed dogmas. To deny them implies heresy against the ecclesiastical faith.


    Quote
    Fides ecclesiastica is a classification of those Roman Catholic dogmas which are Church teachings, definitively decided on by the Magisterium, but not as being Divine revelations properly speaking. They are considered infallible and irrevocable because, although they are not "truths of faith" (De Fide), they are nevertheless "closely related to them".
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #205 on: August 30, 2018, 09:24:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 30, 2018, 09:12:57 AM
    You refuse to answer because you know that it'll undermine everything you've been babbling nonsensically about this entire thread.

    On the contrary, I acknowledge Pius XII’s legitimacy as a dogmatic fact subsisting in scripture (same as all other popes):

    “Tu est Petrus...”

    You, on the contrary, highlight your own inconsistency and sectarian arbitrarity by acknowledging Pius XII, but not Francis, yet still muster the effrontery to use the papacy as dogmatic fact argument, even though you reject it!

    That is prima facie evidence of your sectarian bad will.

    If you would counter by saying that it is I who am inconsistent by arguing that only some canonizations are dogmatic fact, but all popes are dogmatic fact, I respond that whereas all popes have their foundation in scripture, not all canonizations have their foundation/basis in scripture or tradition, and this is why you will not be able to trip me up, and subvert the truth:

    Only matters based in faith are proper subject matter for infallibility.

    Try as you might, you will not be able to obscure that simple fact
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #206 on: August 30, 2018, 09:28:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 30, 2018, 09:17:30 AM
    a gentle reminder:

    Your willfully erroneous application of the citations you provide has now been refuted 4 times in this thread, Deb.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #207 on: August 30, 2018, 09:34:31 AM »
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    • Loudestmouth-

    Just FYI, this is really child’s play for me.

    90% of my rebuttals to your repeated errors in this thread have been typed one finger at a time on my cell phone, with no need for research to overcome you.

    You really ought to have bowed out of this conversation by p. 2 of this thread, but I do understand the pride and OCD impulse which robs you of the ability to do so.

    When I get home from work, I will see what drivel you have come up with (no doubt something already refuted 5-7 times), and continue with your education.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #208 on: August 30, 2018, 09:39:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 30, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
    Your willfully erroneous application of the citations you provide has now been refuted 4 times in this thread, Deb.

    Gratuitous rejection does not constitute refutation.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #209 on: August 30, 2018, 09:47:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 30, 2018, 09:24:16 AM
    On the contrary, I acknowledge Pius XII’s legitimacy as a dogmatic fact subsisting in scripture (same as all other popes):

    Since Eugenio Pacelli was neither born nor elected pope before the death of the last Apostle, how does the fact that he was legitimate pope "subsist in Scripture"?

    Note, well:  Johnson will answer by referring to the fact that the office of the papacy can be found in Scripture, but that is not at issue here, but rather the proposition that a PARTICULAR individual, Eugenio Pacelli, reigned legitimately as Pope.  By that standard, Sacred Scripture also teaches about the existence of saints in heaven.  What's at issue with canonizations is whether a PARTICULAR individual is a saint.
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