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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18806 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #135 on: August 28, 2018, 10:12:16 AM »
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  • It is the Pope's approval of the Universal Church's veneration of a saint which is protected from error by the Holy Ghost, regardless of the formal or informal processes used.

    Wrong:

    Nothing without a basis in the faith (scripture or tradition) can be the subject of an obligatory assent by the faithful (ie., de fide).

    Anyone who says otherwise violates VI’s prohibition against inventing new doctrines.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #136 on: August 28, 2018, 10:16:53 AM »
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  • Wrong:

    Nothing without a basis in the faith (scripture or tradition) can be the subject of an obligatory assent by the faithful (ie., de fide).

    Anyone who says otherwise violates VI’s prohibition against inventing new doctrines.

    Your key phrase would be "basis in".  Some truths are so intimately connected with revealed truths that they required the assent of faith, for their denial would be logically tantamount to the denial of dogma.

    So, for instance, dogmatic facts require the assent of faith even though they have not been directly revealed.  By way of example, a theologian writing during the time of Pius XII taught that to deny the legitimacy of Pius XII would be heresy.  Is it part of the Deposit that Pius XII was a legitimate pope?  Of course not.  Same thing holds for canonizations.  While not directly part of the Deposit, they are so closely tied to it that they are subject to infallible determination by the Church.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #137 on: August 28, 2018, 10:18:54 AM »
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  • Ladislaus, are you going to respond to my question of the different levels of infallibility or infallible authority or infallible assent (however one wants to phrase it)?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #138 on: August 28, 2018, 10:19:45 AM »
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  • Anyone who says otherwise violates VI’s prohibition against inventing new doctrines.

    Ah, yes, the warped misreading of VI that we always get from R&R.  VI was not, in the relevant passage, "prohibiting" the invention of new doctrine, but merely defining the infallible Magisterium, distinguishing it from Revelation.  While Revelation did yield new doctrine, the infallible Magisterium does not.

    R&R always distort this passage as meaning, "If there's a new doctrine, then it isn't infallible." ... whereas VI actually taught that infallibility PREVENTS the definition of new doctrine (when the notes are met).  So R&R completely invert the meaning of VI's teaching.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #139 on: August 28, 2018, 10:21:03 AM »
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  • Ladislaus, are you going to respond to my question of the different levels of infallibility or infallible authority or infallible assent (however one wants to phrase it)?

    To which question do you refer?  Please repeat it.

    There are no "levels of infallibility".  Infallibility is binary.  Either something is infallible or it is not.

    There are of course degrees of teaching authority, but no levels of infallibility.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #140 on: August 28, 2018, 10:27:05 AM »
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  • Your key phrase would be "basis in".  Some truths are so intimately connected with revealed truths that they required the assent of faith, for their denial would be logically tantamount to the denial of dogma.

    So, for instance, dogmatic facts require the assent of faith even though they have not been directly revealed.  By way of example, a theologian writing during the time of Pius XII taught that to deny the legitimacy of Pius XII would be heresy.  Is it part of the Deposit that Pius XII was a legitimate pope?  Of course not.  Same thing holds for canonizations.  While not directly part of the Deposit, they are so closely tied to it that they are subject to infallible determination by the Church.

    I already anticipated and addressed the issue of canonizations which could be considered dogmatic facts (eg., biblical saints, or saints such as St Jerome):

    Rare though such saints be, their canonizations are infallible not because the pope canonized them, but because of the infallibility of scripture and tradition.

    Conversely, the great majority of saints (and all recently canonized) have absolutely no basis in scripture or tradition (ie., the faith) and consequently, there could never be an obligation to assent to their sanctity (even though I believe the traditional saints are in fact saints), because they, not being part of the deposit of faith, their canonizations could by definition never be de fide.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #141 on: August 28, 2018, 10:29:44 AM »
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  • I already anticipated and addressed the issue of canonizations which could be considered dogmatic facts (eg., biblical saints, or saints such as St Jerome):

    Rare though such saints be, their canonizations are infallible not because the pope canonized them, but because of the infallibility of scripture and tradition.

    Conversely, the great majority of saints (and all recently canonized) have absolutely no basis in scripture or tradition (ie., the faith) and consequently, there could never be an obligation to assent to their sanctity (even though I believe the traditional saints are in fact saints), because they, not being part of the deposit of faith, could by definition never be de fide.

    Take it up with St. Thomas Aquinas and the nearly-unanimous consensus of pre-Vatican II theologians.  Also, you assume as a false premise that infallibility is restricted only to revealed truths.  Vatican II simply teaches that it must be a "matter of faith or morals".

    Have you ever heard of the term "De Fide Ecclesiastica"? [vs. "De Fide Divina/Revelata"?]  Look it up.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #142 on: August 28, 2018, 10:34:34 AM »
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  • Quote
    De fide ecclesiastica (truth of ecclesiastical faith) 

    These truths are infallible, although not contained in Revelation. They were promulgated by the sole authority of the Church. An example of de fide ecclesiastica truth is the lawfulness of communion under one kind. These truths oblige Catholics as much as the revealed dogmas. To deny them implies heresy against the ecclesiastical faith. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #143 on: August 28, 2018, 10:40:24 AM »
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  • Here's another good definition:

    Quote
    Fides ecclesiastica is a classification of those Roman Catholic dogmas which are Church teachings, definitively decided on by the Magisterium, but not as being Divine revelations properly speaking.  They are considered infallible and irrevocable because, although they are not "truths of faith" (De Fide), they are nevertheless "closely related to them".

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #144 on: August 28, 2018, 10:44:38 AM »
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  • Take it up with St. Thomas Aquinas and the nearly-unanimous consensus of pre-Vatican II theologians.  Also, you assume as a false premise that infallibility is restricted only to revealed truths.  Vatican II simply teaches that it must be a "matter of faith or morals".

    Take it up with Pope Benedict XIV, who denies the illusory “consensus” your ignorance and bad will imagine.

    As regards your denial that infallibility is restricted only to revealed truths (!), because Vatican I says only that it must be a matter of faith or morals, your statement seems to overlook an internal contradiction:

    If infallible declarations must pertain to faith (ie., scripture and tradition) and morals, by definition, we are speaking of revelation!

    The idea that a Catholic could be bound to beliefs having no basis in scripture or tradition is so revolutionary and bizarre that I do not believe I have ever heard even the most extreme sedevacantist advance the idea.

    The Dimond brothers would even wince at the suggestion:

    It is tantamount to denying public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #145 on: August 28, 2018, 11:02:41 AM »
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  • If infallible declarations must pertain to faith (ie., scripture and tradition) and morals, by definition, we are speaking of revelation!

    The idea that a Catholic could be bound to beliefs having no basis in scripture or tradition is so revolutionary and bizarre that I do not believe I have ever heard even the most extreme sedevacantist advance the idea.

    Canonizations have always been a part of the Church’s Tradition, implicitly complementing the article of Faith in the Apostles Creed: I believe in the communion of saints.

    The communion of saints must necessarily include those who are in Heaven, and not in Hell. That is why it is impossible for the Church to err in this regard. Proposing a person for the faithful to pray to, when the person is actually in Hell, completely obliterates the dogma.

    Really, it is just matter of common sense.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #146 on: August 28, 2018, 11:30:03 AM »
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  • The idea that a Catholic could be bound to beliefs having no basis in scripture or tradition is so revolutionary and bizarre that I do not believe I have ever heard even the most extreme sedevacantist advance the idea.

    You know nothing of theology, Johnson.  There are truths that, while not directly revealed, are so logically connected with revealed truths that their denial would result in the implicit denial of some revealed truth.  Those then are capable of being defined and taught infallibly by the Church and must be held de fide.  These are those truths theologians refer to as de fide ecclesiastica.  But then Johnson ignored the entire previous post.  Johnson considers St. Thomas Aquinas to be an idiot.  Johnson considers the nearly unanimous consensus of pre-Vatican II theologians to the nothing but the collective ravings of idiots.  Johnson thereby proves himself to be the idiot.

    It is de fide that Eugenio Pacelli reigned legitimately as Pope Pius XII.  If you deny this you are a heretic.  How can this be if it's not revealed truth?  Because if you claim that his legitimacy is not known with the certainty of faith, then you cannot then know with the certainty of faith that Our Lady was assumed into heaven.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #147 on: August 28, 2018, 11:32:31 AM »
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  • If infallible declarations must pertain to faith (ie., scripture and tradition) and morals, by definition, we are speaking of revelation!

    Please see the bolded section of your own quote, John.  St. Thomas explains why this is the case for canonizations.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #148 on: August 28, 2018, 11:39:12 AM »
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  • Quote
    De fide ecclesiastica (truth of ecclesiastical faith) 

    These truths are infallible, although not contained in Revelation. They were promulgated by the sole authority of the Church. An example of de fide ecclesiastica truth is the lawfulness of communion under one kind. These truths oblige Catholics as much as the revealed dogmas. To deny them implies heresy against the ecclesiastical faith. 

    Ladislaus, this isn't a new doctrine but a clarification of an existing doctrine (i.e. Holy Eucharist).  The Church CANNOT, EVER proclaim a new doctrine.  It can only clarify and add details.

    Quote
    The idea that a Catholic could be bound to beliefs having no basis in scripture or tradition is so revolutionary and bizarre that I do not believe I have ever heard even the most extreme sedevacantist advance the idea.
    Agree, Sean, it's bizzare.

    Quote
    because they, not being part of the deposit of faith, their canonizations could by definition never be de fide.
    Exactly.

    Quote
    R&R always distort this passage as meaning, "If there's a new doctrine, then it isn't infallible." ... whereas VI actually taught that infallibility PREVENTS the definition of new doctrine (when the notes are met).  So R&R completely invert the meaning of VI's teaching.
    It's not an inversion, it's just semantics.  There can be no new doctrines, ever.  All doctrines are of Divine origin. When Christ died and the Apostles died, this stopped the transmission of Divine doctrines.  The Church's job is to re-teach and clarify those Divine doctrines which are part of the Faith either explicitly or implicitly.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #149 on: August 28, 2018, 11:41:53 AM »
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    The initial point that needs to be made in this discussion is that the infallibility of canonisations is not taught by the magisterium of the Church. Belief in their infallibility is not therefore required of Catholics. This point is agreed on by theologians, as can be illustrated by the teaching of a standard manual of theology; van Noort, Castelot and Murphy's Dogmatic Theology vol. II: Christ's Church (Cork: Mercier Press, 1958). These authors follow the traditional and very important practice of attaching a theological note to every thesis that they advance. These notes specify the degree of authority possessed by each thesis, and the corresponding obligation to believe that is laid upon Catholics. The highest note is 'de fide': it belongs to propositions that must be believed with the assent of theological faith, and that cannot be knowingly and pertinaciously rejected without committing the sin of heresy. The lowest note is 'sententia communis', which, as Ludwig Ott states, means 'doctrine which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally' (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 6th ed. (St. Louis, Mo.: Herder, 1964), p. 10).


    Van Noort, Castelot, and Murphy specify that the canonisations in question are the final and definitive decrees by which the supreme pontiff declares that someone has been admitted to heaven and is to be venerated by everyone. The decree of authority that they attribute to the claim that such canonisations are infallible is 'sententia communis', the common opinion of theologians (van Noort, Castelot and Murphy, p. 117). Their evaluation of the authority of this claim is the more significant because they themselves agree with the assertion that such canonisations are infallible. There can thus be no intention on their part of minimising the authority of a claim with which they disagree. The assertion that canonisations are infallible thus belongs to the field of free opinions. It is not one that Catholics have an obligation to accept.

    Lad, did you not read the above?  If so, explain to me where you disagree.  This is what i'm referring to when I say there are degrees of infallibility.  If you want to correct me and say that I should say "there are degrees (to the authority) of infallibility" then fine.  That means that there are infallible statements which one can debate and ones which we cannot.  That means that one can say that 'canonizations are infallible' and be accurate, as long as they distinguish and say that such infallibility is not the same as a 'de fide' infalliblity.  That's why I use the terms "religious conditional assent" and "unconditinal assent" to distinguish between "de fide" and "sententia communis".