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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18738 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #120 on: August 28, 2018, 08:43:35 AM »
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    St. Thomas Aquinas disagrees, as do nearly all pre-Vatican II Catholic theologians.
    But you're not making a distinction on what type of infallibility that St Thomas was referring to.  He was probably not referring to ABSOLUTE infallibility, and if he was, then he would be corrected by Vatican 1.  Assuming he was not referring to absolute, unconditional assent infallibility, (as we have shown that most other theologians were not referring to this kind), then I will agree that canonizations are infallible, but with a lowercase "i" or as has been said previously, I will give religious conditional assent.

    Still, in the common usage of the term infallible, canonizations are not such since they do not require unconditional assent.  So, some qualification needs to be made when explaining this to others who are unaware of the necessary distinctions, lest one bend the truth.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #121 on: August 28, 2018, 08:46:49 AM »
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    This thread is not about an impaired and corrupted canonization process in the conciliar sect. It is about infallibility of canonizations in general.
    Ok, then conditional assent applies to both, though the pre-V2 process has much more reliability due to its process.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #122 on: August 28, 2018, 08:54:30 AM »
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    Above, I used the following example: An ecuмenical council had defined that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. But that does neither define nor imply that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son, too.
    Ok, i'll admit that it's possible, but until the Church DEFINES that the Holy Ghost also proceedds from the Son, it's just speculation.

    If you want to argue that the pope could be infallbile outside of the V1 requirements, then 1) you'd have to read the V1 fathers and make sure that their intent was not to restrict such a definition to only that one area, and 2) your argument would be theological speculation, which does not require unconditional assent, so your assertion is questionable until the Church defines it.  In the end, you can argue that canonizations are infallible to the same degree as an ex cathedra statement but it's just your opinion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #123 on: August 28, 2018, 09:11:50 AM »
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  • But you're not making a distinction on what type of infallibility that St Thomas was referring to.  He was probably not referring to ABSOLUTE infallibility, and if he was, then he would be corrected by Vatican 1.

    So, from where are you making up this distinction between "absolute" infallibility and other types of infallibility?  No such distinction exists.  Either something is infallible or it's not infallible.  There are no degrees of infallibility.

    There are degrees of AUTHORITY (or theological notes) in certain Church teachings, but something is either infallible or it is not, as the term infallibility does not admit of degrees.

    Pax, you keep getting caught making things up out of thin air to suit your own agenda.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #124 on: August 28, 2018, 09:22:15 AM »
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    The initial point that needs to be made in this discussion is that the infallibility of canonisations is not taught by the magisterium of the Church. Belief in their infallibility is not therefore required of Catholics. This point is agreed on by theologians, as can be illustrated by the teaching of a standard manual of theology; van Noort, Castelot and Murphy's Dogmatic Theology vol. II: Christ's Church (Cork: Mercier Press, 1958). These authors follow the traditional and very important practice of attaching a theological note to every thesis that they advance. These notes specify the degree of authority possessed by each thesis, and the corresponding obligation to believe that is laid upon Catholics. The highest note is 'de fide': it belongs to propositions that must be believed with the assent of theological faith, and that cannot be knowingly and pertinaciously rejected without committing the sin of heresy. The lowest note is 'sententia communis', which, as Ludwig Ott states, means 'doctrine which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally' (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 6th ed. (St. Louis, Mo.: Herder, 1964), p. 10).


    Van Noort, Castelot, and Murphy specify that the canonisations in question are the final and definitive decrees by which the supreme pontiff declares that someone has been admitted to heaven and is to be venerated by everyone. The decree of authority that they attribute to the claim that such canonisations are infallible is 'sententia communis', the common opinion of theologians (van Noort, Castelot and Murphy, p. 117). Their evaluation of the authority of this claim is the more significant because they themselves agree with the assertion that such canonisations are infallible. There can thus be no intention on their part of minimising the authority of a claim with which they disagree. The assertion that canonisations are infallible thus belongs to the field of free opinions. It is not one that Catholics have an obligation to accept.
    Lad, did you not read the above?  If so, explain to me where you disagree.  This is what i'm referring to when I say there are degrees of infallibility.  If you want to correct me and say that I should say "there are degrees (to the authority) of infallibility" then fine.  That means that there are infallible statements which one can debate and ones which we cannot.  That means that one can say that 'canonizations are infallible' and be accurate, as long as they distinguish and say that such infallibility is not the same as a 'de fide' infalliblity.  That's why I use the terms "religious conditional assent" and "unconditinal assent" to distinguish between "de fide" and "sententia communis".



    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #125 on: August 28, 2018, 09:26:52 AM »
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  • Ok, i'll admit that it's possible, but until the Church DEFINES that the Holy Ghost also proceedds from the Son, it's just speculation.

    You admit that it's possible? Don't you confess: Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit (And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son)?

    Not everything which has not been solemnly defined is speculation. There is the ordinary universal magisterium, remember?


    If you want to argue that the pope could be infallbile outside of the V1 requirements, then 1) you'd have to read the V1 fathers and make sure that their intent was not to restrict such a definition to only that one area, and 2) your argument would be theological speculation, which does not require unconditional assent, so your assertion is questionable until the Church defines it.  In the end, you can argue that canonizations are infallible to the same degree as an ex cathedra statement but it's just your opinion.

    ad 1)

    I did read Pastor aeternus. I quoted the relevant text above. I hope you did read it, too!

    The meaning of definitions does not depend on any intent of the fathers of the defining council. Their meaning is given in the text, and must not be twisted by speculations about an intent of the fathers.


    ad 2)

    I am not arguing. The text of the definition of papal infallibility in Pastor aeternus is unequivocal. It does not say that papal teachings are only infallible if, it says that papal teachings are infallible if.



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #126 on: August 28, 2018, 09:29:52 AM »
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  • St. Thomas Aquinas disagrees, as do nearly all pre-Vatican II Catholic theologians.  "Exactly!" my rear end.  What a bad-willed fool you are.

    A repeated lie doesn’t make it true:

    I have twice quoted Pope Benedict XIV as saying that “many great named theologians deny that canonizations are de fide.”

    Which of us is ignorant and of ill will?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #127 on: August 28, 2018, 09:30:54 AM »
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  • Ok, i'll admit that it's possible, but until the Church DEFINES that the Holy Ghost also proceedds from the Son, it's just speculation.


    :o


    Offline Charlemagne

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #128 on: August 28, 2018, 09:37:21 AM »
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  • Ok, i'll admit that it's possible, but until the Church DEFINES that the Holy Ghost also proceedds from the Son, it's just speculation.

    If you want to argue that the pope could be infallbile outside of the V1 requirements, then 1) you'd have to read the V1 fathers and make sure that their intent was not to restrict such a definition to only that one area, and 2) your argument would be theological speculation, which does not require unconditional assent, so your assertion is questionable until the Church defines it.  In the end, you can argue that canonizations are infallible to the same degree as an ex cathedra statement but it's just your opinion.
    Just...wow.
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #129 on: August 28, 2018, 09:41:52 AM »
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  • The process to Sainthood was abused.   There has been a push to keep celebrating Vatican II.  Pipe John Paul II protected pedophiles at the same time punished Archbishop Lefevre over "disobedience".   They later found love letters to married woman.  He went on ski trips with woman. They say Pope Paul VI had boyfriend.  Pope John xxIII started Vatican II and he protect ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. He also promoted ecuмenism and started worshipping with true heretics.   When anyone is overwhelm with grave sin, they can't make sound holy decisions ( myself included). 

    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #130 on: August 28, 2018, 09:47:04 AM »
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  • PV-

    The filioque is an article of faith, and clearly dogmatic, having been added to the Nicene Creed, and having its basis founded in both scripture and tradition.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #131 on: August 28, 2018, 09:52:21 AM »
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    You admit that it's possible? Don't you confess: Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit (And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son)?

    Not everything which has not been solemnly defined is speculation. There is the ordinary universal magisterium, remember?
    I was arguing against your logic, not the specifics of the logic.  Of course the Son proceeds from the Holy Ghost (and this has also been defined since it's in the Creed). 
    Yes, there are plenty of articles of the Faith which are part of Scripture/Tradition which have not been defined.  It doesn't make them less true.  They are Divine truths which need no definition, unless and until questions arise then the pope will define them to clarify and guard such truths.

    No, I don't believe that there are ADDITIONAL ways for the the pope to be infallible, outside of V1's definition.  You say there could be.  I say, this is speculation since it hasn't been defined.  Your example of the 'son proceeding from the Holy Ghost' is a poor argument for your extra-infallibility proposition.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #132 on: August 28, 2018, 09:56:40 AM »
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  • Ok, then conditional assent applies to both, though the pre-V2 process has much more reliability due to its process.

    It is the Pope's approval of the Universal Church's veneration of a saint which is protected from error by the Holy Ghost, regardless of the formal or informal processes used.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #133 on: August 28, 2018, 10:07:45 AM »
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  • Do you admit that such canonizations only require conditional assent?  If so, then we agree.  If however, you want to put a canonization on par with a dogma, requiring UNCONDITIONAL assent, then I absolutely disagree.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #134 on: August 28, 2018, 10:09:26 AM »
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  • No, I don't believe that there are ADDITIONAL ways for the the pope to be infallible, outside of V1's definition.  You say there could be.  I say, this is speculation since it hasn't been defined.  Your example of the 'son proceeding from the Holy Ghost' is a poor argument for your extra-infallibility proposition.

    Fine!

    It is a false idea that all acts of a pope but ex cathedra acts are fallible. Non-ex cathedra acts may be infallible, too.

    For the time being, noone has to believe that canonization are infallible acts.

    On the other hand, rejecting a specific canonisation implies that all canonisations are challenged. It implies not only that a pope may order and may have ordered the Church of Our Lord to venerate someone who is rejected by the Lord. It means that a pope has ordered the Church of Our Lord to venerate such a person.