Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18712 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3162
  • Gender: Male
Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #105 on: August 27, 2018, 10:38:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • Why should they be part of revelation?

    The Vatican Council teaches that the pope is infallible under certain circuмstances.
    The Vatican Council does not teach that all other teachings of the pope are fallible.

    The definition defines cases where the pope is infallible. It does neither define cases where the pope is not infallible, nor does it imply that the pope is fallible in all other cases.

    Study the text of Pastor aeternus and/or get your logic straight!

    What kind of gibberish is this?

    You are removing Vatican I from the conversation, in order to argue that canonizations are infallible per the ordinary magisterium?

    Even though canonizations are not acts of the ordinary magisterium?

    And even though, if they were, you would still be running into the same roadblock at the level of the ordinary magisterium (i.e., The pope cannot teach anything infallibly which is not itself rooted in the faith: Scripture and tradition, since scripture and tradition are the guarantees of said infallibility).

    Moreover, you seem to be unwittingly forwarding the idea that the pope can teach something infallibly at the level of the ordinary magisterium, which he could not also teach infallibly at the level of the extraordinary magisterium (e.g., canonizations, once again, per Vatican I).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +454/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #106 on: August 27, 2018, 10:56:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • You are removing Vatican I from the conversation, in order to argue that canonizations are infallible per the ordinary magisterium?

    No. The universal ordinary magisterium is a different topic.


    The pope is infallible when teaching ex cathedra. That is true and defined. But the definition does not imply that he is fallible in all other cases. Specifically, it does not imply that he is fallible in the case of canonisations.


    If the spirit proceeds from the father, then that does not imply that he does not proceed from the son, too.
    If the pope is infallible under circuмstances x, then that does not imply that he is not infallible under circuмstances not x but y, too.


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11425
    • Reputation: +6387/-1119
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #107 on: August 28, 2018, 06:18:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No. The universal ordinary magisterium is a different topic.

    But is it different?  I thought Vatican I included the OUM as infallible and canonizations were part of the OUM? But maybe I am getting confused at this point.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #108 on: August 28, 2018, 07:12:28 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    But the definition does not imply that he is fallible in all other cases. Specifically, it does not imply that he is fallible in the case of canonizations.

    You’re correct, it doesn’t imply that, it says it directly.  V1 teaches that papal infallibility ONLY happens when the 4 requirements are met.  Anywhere else, the pope is fallible.  
    What V1 did not define, specifically, is when the UOM is infallible, though we know this generally, through its definition of infallibility, which is used by the pope to re-teach, clarify and define “that which has always been taught”.  A canonization of a person in 1800 can’t have been “always taught” since the Apostles, so it can’t be infallible.  Only those things which are part of Tradition/Scripture can be infallible because Christ gave us ALL catholic truths from the beginning.  The pope’s job is to re-teach and clarify Christ’s truths. 

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +454/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #109 on: August 28, 2018, 07:18:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • I thought Vatican I included the OUM as infallible and canonizations were part of the OUM? But maybe I am getting confused at this point.

    Yes, the Vatican Council teaches papal infallibilty in Pastor aeternus (session 4) as well as infallibilty of the ordinary and universal magisterium in Dei filius (session 3).

    The ordinary and universal magisterium is the magisterium of all the bishops all over the world, including their auxiliary bishops, and priests, and seminar professors etc., teaching, what has been taught "everywhere, always and by all" (apostolically authorized shepherds).

    A canonization is not an act of the ordinary and universal magisterium, but an act of a pope. Thus, infallibilty of the ordinary and universal magisterium does not play a role. However, it is not needed to defend the infallibilty of canonizations, because the definition of papal infallibilty ex cathedra does neither define nor imply fallibility of all other acts of the pope.


    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +454/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #110 on: August 28, 2018, 07:20:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • @SeanJohnson

    I am not arguing that canonizations are infallible acts. Still, I believe that all saints are saints. Even fallible acts may produce truth and only truth. Infallibility of canonizations is not a prerequisite for the proposition that all saints are indeed saints.

    I am arguing that R&R-theory is a problem as can be seen in this thread. To reject saints of the conciliar sect the status of all canonized saints is challanged.

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +454/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #111 on: August 28, 2018, 07:26:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • V1 teaches that papal infallibility ONLY happens when the 4 requirements are met.  Anywhere else, the pope is fallible.


    Quote from: Pastor aeternus
    we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
    papalencyclicals.net

    There is no restricting "only".

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27457/-5070
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #112 on: August 28, 2018, 08:12:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • As it stands, that is an unsupported bare and gratuitous assertion.

    I guess that the citation of St. Thomas saying the same thing that Cantarella did (that canonization is a matter of faith) means nothing to your depraved mind.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27457/-5070
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #113 on: August 28, 2018, 08:13:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Exactly!

    A canonization is not at all part of divine revelation (scripture or tradition), neither implicitly nor explicitly.

    And if it is not part of divine revelation, then it cannot be the object of infallibility (from which it follows that it cannot become obligatory for the faithful).

    St. Thomas Aquinas disagrees, as do nearly all pre-Vatican II Catholic theologians.  "Exactly!" my rear end.  What a bad-willed fool you are.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27457/-5070
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #114 on: August 28, 2018, 08:17:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • In other words, individual catholics get to "pick and choose" what saints they consider worthy of the title, and which ones they do not; relying solely upon their own whim, regardless of what the Holy See proposes.

    Indeed, this is the heresy of SeanJohnson, Pax, and many in the R&R ... the subordination of the Church's authority to their own private judgment; they consider their private judgment to be a superior and more reliable rule of faith than the teaching and discipline of the Church.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #115 on: August 28, 2018, 08:24:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    because the definition of papal infallibilty ex cathedra does neither define nor imply fallibility of all other acts of the pope.
    Yes, it absolutely does.  If I define A as infallible, then all else that is not A is fallible.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #116 on: August 28, 2018, 08:29:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Even fallible acts may produce truth and only truth. Infallibility of canonizations is not a prerequisite for the proposition that all saints are indeed saints.
    This is true.

    Quote
    To reject saints of the conciliar sect the status of all canonized saints is challanged.
    No, only the conciliar saints are challenged and this is due to the impaired and corrupted process.  Saints from pre-V2 were confirmed with multiple miracles from heaven.  Post-V2 saints are not.  The lack of an independent, devil's-advocate, patient process is the main factor of doubt for me, which when added to the lack of infallibility, makes post-V2 saints highly suspicious, even if there are many who have been canonized that their lives leave little room for doubt (i.e. Padre Pio, Jacinta and Francisco). 

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #117 on: August 28, 2018, 08:33:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    There is no restricting "only".
    There doesn't have to be.  It's written to say that when the pope fulfills these 4 requirements he's infallible.  If he does not fulfill these 4 requirements, by definition, he's not infallible. 

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +454/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #118 on: August 28, 2018, 08:36:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, it absolutely does.  If I define A as infallible, then all else that is not A is fallible.


    Quote from: Pax Vobis
    There doesn't have to be [a restricting "only"].  It's written to say that when the pope fulfills these 4 requirements he's infallible.  If he does not fulfill these 4 requirements, by definition, he's not infallible.

    Above, I used the following example: An ecuмenical council had defined that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. But that does neither define nor imply that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son, too.

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +454/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #119 on: August 28, 2018, 08:38:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, only the conciliar saints are challenged and this is due to the impaired and corrupted process.

    This thread is not about an impaired and corrupted canonization process in the conciliar sect. It is about infallibility of canonizations in general.