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Author Topic: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible  (Read 18704 times)

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Offline Cantarella

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Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2018, 07:43:32 PM »
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  • 7) But it is clear that the candidates for sainthood are not part of the divine revelation; they are not contained in the deposit of faith, either in scripture (unless we are speaking of biblical saints) or tradition, neither implicitly, nor explicitly.

    8> As such, canonizations cannot be the object of infallibility, since the "faith" is precisely the totality scripture and tradition; nothing more, nothing less.

    The canonization of saints is intrinsically connected to the dogma that saints are to be venerated and invoked as we proclaim in the Professions of Faith, so yes, they can and are objects of infallibility.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #91 on: August 27, 2018, 08:00:24 PM »
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  • The canonization of saints is intrinsically connected to the dogma that saints are to be venerated and invoked as we proclaim in the Professions of Faith, so yes, they can and are objects of infallibility.

    As it stands, that is an unsupported bare and gratuitous assertion.

    To make it credible, you need to explain why in your view, Vatican I does not apply to canonizations (which according to you, are somehow exempt from the requirement of infallibility pertaining to faith and morals).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #92 on: August 27, 2018, 08:01:03 PM »
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  • The canonization of saints is intrinsically connected to the dogma that saints are to be venerated and invoked as we proclaim in the Professions of Faith, so yes, they can and are objects of infallibility.
    That is why they are called SECONDARY objects of infallibility rather than primary. I don't think this term has been used in this thread (although I may have missed it).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #93 on: August 27, 2018, 08:08:40 PM »
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  • That is why they are called SECONDARY objects of infallibility rather than primary. I don't think this term has been used in this thread (although I may have missed it).

    Not even close:

    My previous post chose to challenge Canterella with an impossible task to make the point clearer to her:

    Show how something which is not part of faith or morals (e.g., canonizations) can be the object of infallibility.

    Just prior to that, in the previous post which she ignored, I explained how canonizations as dogmatic fact (i.e., possibly infallible, or at least theologically certain by indirect -or secondary if you prefer- links to revelation, as in the case of St. Jerome) are extremely limited:

    What is the link to divine revelation with Mother Theresa, JPII, John XXIII, and Escriva?

    Nothing.

    Those canonizations could not possibly be infallible.

    Canteralla wants to conflate, through a sloppy admixture, the "intrinsic connection" between canonizations and the dogma that saints are to be venerated.

    But that confused rationale begs the question: Who are the saints?

    The dogma certainly could not pertain to JPII and the rest who have no connection to revelation.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #94 on: August 27, 2018, 08:28:27 PM »
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  • Quote
    I am free to reject Mother Teresa, for instance; but adhere to Padre Pio, just because I perceive "heroic virtue" in the later; but not the former.
    The process of canonization has been totally corrupted, as has most things since V2.  I would say it’s extremely likely that ANY saint who was canonized pre-V2 is a saint, just based on the process, patience and miracles which were studied.  

    Putting that aside, it is unnecessary for Catholics to have particular saints to pray to.  One can get to heaven without them.  All those saints who are scriptural are enough of an example.  

    Fatima is one of the most well known apparitions ever, with probably the most famous miracle ever performed, yet the Church does not make us believe in Fatima to get to heaven.  How much less important are praying to the saints, than praying to the “Lady of the Rosary”?

    If many of you didn’t have a sede agenda, and could look at the facts objectively, you’d see that canonizations and sainthood is not an essential part of the Faith but a secondary blessing from God.  The native Indians who were converted in the West US had no idea about many of the saints and they still saved their souls.  If saints are truly an element of the faith, we should be REQUIRED to have them all memorized, no?


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #95 on: August 27, 2018, 08:39:52 PM »
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  • The process of canonization has been totally corrupted, as has most things since V2.  I would say it’s extremely likely that ANY saint who was canonized pre-V2 is a saint, just based on the process, patience and miracles which were studied.  

    Padre Pio was canonized by JPII in 2002.

    Mother Teresa was canonized by Francis in 2016.

    Both of these canonizations occurred after Vatican II Council. Why are they different? The SSPX has no problem with Padre Pio's canonization from what I know. I have not heard anyone outside the SSPX and R&R circles attaching the canonization's infallibility to the methods and processes used. It is the final Papal Decree of Canonization what matters.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #96 on: August 27, 2018, 08:59:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    Show how something which is not part of faith or morals (e.g., canonizations) can be the object of infallibility.


    But what I said is that canonizations are in fact intrinsically connected to Faith and Morals, as the Spirago's Catechism explains.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #97 on: August 27, 2018, 09:03:27 PM »
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  • Following the reasonings of the defender of the proposition in the title and OP of this thread we have:

     St. Thomas Aquinas
     Pope St. Pius V.
     St. Robert Bellarmine
     St. Peter Canisius
     Pope St. Pius X.

    may not be saints. They may be in hell, and to venerate them may be as sinful as venerating a devil. To read or to hear mass on a feast day of one of these may be sinful.

    Also, Karol Józef Wojtyła may not be a saint. Catholics are free to believe that Wojtyła is in hell. But don't get too slack. There are teachings which are de fide: You have to believe, that Wojtyła was a pope as well as

     Roncalli
     Montini
     Luciani
     Ratzinger

    were popes and

     Bergoglio

    is a pope, vicar of out Lord Jesus Christ, though you may choose when to obey them or not.


    Such is the state of affairs in R&R-theory in the second decade of the third millenium. :clown:


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #98 on: August 27, 2018, 09:25:53 PM »
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  • Padre Pio was canonized by JPII in 2002.

    Mother Teresa was canonized by Francis in 2016.

    Both of these canonizations occurred after Vatican II Council. Why are they different? The SSPX has no problem with Padre Pio's canonization from what I know. I have not heard anyone outside the SSPX and R&R circles attaching the canonization's infallibility to the methods and processes used. It is the final Papal Decree of Canonization what matters.

    I have yet to read the SSPX saying it is obligatory to accept Padre Pio's canonization.

    Fact is the canonizations are exactly the same in this: Neither is obligatory, and neither could be, because neither has anything to do with faith or morals (i.e., Vatican I requirements).

    I believe Padre Pio is a saint, but it has nothing to do with the canonization.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #99 on: August 27, 2018, 09:28:12 PM »
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  • Following the reasonings of the defender of the proposition in the title and OP of this thread we have:

     St. Thomas Aquinas
     Pope St. Pius V.
     St. Robert Bellarmine
     St. Peter Canisius
     Pope St. Pius X.

    may not be saints. They may be in hell, and to venerate them may be as sinful as venerating a devil. To read or to hear mass on a feast day of one of these may be sinful.

    Also, Karol Józef Wojtyła may not be a saint. Catholics are free to believe that Wojtyła is in hell. But don't get too slack. There are teachings which are de fide: You have to believe, that Wojtyła was a pope as well as

     Roncalli
     Montini
     Luciani
     Ratzinger

    were popes and

     Bergoglio

    is a pope, vicar of out Lord Jesus Christ, though you may choose when to obey them or not.


    Such is the state of affairs in R&R-theory in the second decade of the third millenium. :clown:

    Whether someone is a saint, and whether someone is obligated to venerate someone as a saint, are two different ideas you would apparently blur.

    Your problem is really with Vatican I, not the truth tellers.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #100 on: August 27, 2018, 09:44:18 PM »
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  • Whether someone is a saint, and whether someone is obligated to venerate someone as a saint, are two different ideas you would apparently blur.

    Not at all. We are not only obliged but virtually forced to venerate canonized saints within the liturgy.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #101 on: August 27, 2018, 10:04:26 PM »
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  • Not at all. We are not only obliged but virtually forced to venerate canonized saints within the liturgy.

    Some of those saints are Biblical, and therefore part of revelation (which would qualify them, per Vatican I on the criteria of faith and morals).

    The others would be dogmatic facts, and therefore indirectly (or "secondarily" if you prefer) qualified via Vatican I.

    The same cannot be said for most of the rest, and therefore they cannot be the object (primary or secondary) of infallibility (and consequently, there can be no obligation to venerate them).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #102 on: August 27, 2018, 10:07:37 PM »
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  • Some of those saints are Biblical, and therefore part of revelation (which would qualify them, per Vatican I on the criteria of faith and morals).

    The others would be dogmatic facts, and therefore indirectly (or "secondarily" if you prefer) qualified via Vatican I.

    The same cannot be said for most of the rest.

    Here again my list of examples for reference:

    St. Thomas Aquinas
    Pope St. Pius V.
    St. Robert Bellarmine
    St. Peter Canisius
    Pope St. Pius X.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #103 on: August 27, 2018, 10:09:23 PM »
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  • Here again my list of examples for reference:

    St. Thomas Aquinas
    Pope St. Pius V.
    St. Robert Bellarmine
    St. Peter Canisius
    Pope St. Pius X.

    Which of these was part of revelation?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible
    « Reply #104 on: August 27, 2018, 10:17:44 PM »
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  • Which of these was part of revelation?

    Why should they be part of revelation?

    The Vatican Council teaches that the pope is infallible under certain circuмstances.
    The Vatican Council does not teach that all other teachings of the pope are fallible.

    The definition defines cases where the pope is infallible. It does neither define cases where the pope is not infallible, nor does it imply that the pope is fallible in all other cases.

    Study the text of Pastor aeternus and/or get your logic straight!